Priya Parker and Gary Ware discuss the company culture showdown: Ted Lasso vs. Succession's Logan Roy

Priya Parker Interview:

Damon Klotz:

Hi everyone… it’s Damon Klotz, host of the Culture First Podcast. Before we get started, I just want to say a big thank you to everyone who’s been listening and supporting this show. Whether you’ve been listening since our first episode back in 2019, or, you’ve just found this episode today, the team here at Culture Amp appreciate your support.

Last year Culture First was part of Spotify’s Wrapped awards where we were recognised in the top 5% most followed and most shared podcasts globally. As incredible as that is, I know that there’s a lot of people who don’t follow or subscribe to the show who are listening right now. So if you could give us a follow, subscribe and leave a review or 5 stars, that would mean the world to me. Those little actions help more people find this show and that helps us all create a better world of work. Alright, that’s enough from me, let’s get started.

Damon Klotz:

Hello, and welcome back to another episode of the Culture First Podcast.

We have a very unique and special episode in store for you today. This show has always tried to bring you exciting guests, talk about the trends impacting the world of work and give you a behind-the-scenes look at culture first companies and how they operate.

This episode is a new style of episode and one that I'd love to do more of if you, our audience, like this style.

We are going to analyze the TV shows Ted Lasso and Succession.

If you look at the award nominations in Hollywood this year, you'll see that Ted Lasso received 21 Emmy nominations and Succession with 27 nominations.

The reason we are going to explore these shows is because they offer a juxtaposition in terms of company culture. Both organizations, Richmond Fc and Waystar Royco, succeeded in some form. But how they achieved their goals was very, very different.

To help me take a look at the way these TV workplaces went about things, I’m joined on the show by previous guest Priya Parker, author of The Art of Gathering! Priya compares these 2 starkly different management styles and breaks down for us what we can learn from how they gather and how they use or abuse power.

And then, I am stoked to say, we will hear from Gary Ware! Gary is a Culture First Chapter Lead Volunteer for Culture Amp in San Diego, a facilitator and a master improv teacher. Gary is a big Ted Lasso Stan. Gary and I will deep dive into what Ted Lasso, as a leader, taught us across the three seasons.

Damon Klotz:

I wanted to maybe use these two workplaces as examples, because I kind of see Ted Lasso as a show where the implicit is explicit, where they make room for important conversations in the workplace. And Succession, on the other side, is like a show dedicated to like allowing watchers to be a fly on the wall where these gatherings of all sizes take place that seem to be lacking hosts. It's a constant battle for authority, and there's no clear purpose.

Priya Parker:

Totally.

Damon Klotz:

What have you found fascinating maybe about those shows and their respective company cultures when it comes to gathering?

Priya Parker:

Thank you for asking it. What a lovely, lovely invitation

So I actually think the foil of these two shows is such an astute comparison. And in a sense, in Ted Lasso, I think the ways that he gathers, I think he's doing a couple of different things as a character. And I apologize. Just given our time, I won't summarize what the show's about. I mean, I guess it's basically is an American coach who is brought in to kind of pull together this British football team.

Priya Parker:

One of the things that I see him doing again and again is first of all, I think the qualities as a host of what Ted lasso is doing. One is he's giving... He is seeing each of his guests and his guests being his football players, his soccer players. He is noticing each one. He's seeing what their needs are. He's telling them why they're there and what their deepest purpose and their values actually should be. He is elevating like... I'll analyze a couple of scenes that I thought were so interesting. And now it's been a while since I saw season one, but he has a, I think his Pakistani, kind of assistant coach and at sort of one point of the season... Okay. Spoiler alert, because I don't know how to analyze this if we don't actually talk about what happens.

Damon Klotz:

Massive spoiler alert. Pause now.

Priya Parker:

So there's this one scene where the assistant coach is basically saying like, "Hey, I wrote up some thoughts about each player. I think this is what you should tell them." And Ted Lasso first sees that there's merit, right? In a sense, his assistant coaches are sub hosts, technically. They have less power than he does as a head host. And he's empowering, he sees that his sub host is able to see a need in the group. And rather than doing it himself, he's pushing out his authority, he's sharing his authority to elevate the status of the junior coach. And he says, "You do it."

Priya Parker:

And then there's this beautiful scene where this previously kind of quiet, and under the previous regime, water boy, like he was like in charge of the thermoses and refilling water cups, elevates and is able to... I mean, it's an interesting example where he basically goes around to every single player and he both says like what they're doing that works, and then he flips it and he basically calls them out on some element of their attitude or some element that's not working.

Priya Parker:

And if you watch that scene, he builds energy in the group by both honoring and seeing what each person's doing. And then like embodies transgression, which is he's like... I can't remember exactly what he says, but for each person, he kind of insults them. But in that cultural context, that actually builds currency for the dweeby assistant coach and makes people realize like, "Oh my gosh, you're seeing me. You're seeing my behavior. I'm being watched. I'm being..." In each of those moments, the insults are equitable. I'm being a little facetious here, but there's a love in that, which is like every single person is being seen and like loved on and judged to improve.

Priya Parker:

And I would say there's a second scene that I think is beautiful where Ted Lasso... this really is a spoiler alert. He has to figure out how to remove the curse of the soccer team. And he basically invents and makes up this ritual that is pretty profound to basically remove the curse of what happened to set that curse. And everybody has to bring, at midnight, in the dark, at a strange time of day, with risk, everybody has to bring a sacrifice, like an object of sacrifice that really means something to them.

Priya Parker:

And on one hand, the story and the narrative... So there's a structure. There's equal participation. There's a belief that's shared and explained to say to relieve this curse, we actually each have to bring something that matters to us and burn it.

Priya Parker:

But then while each person is willing to go and like show their object, they have to explain why they love the object that they have. My mother died, and this is the last thing she gave to me. My cousin wasn't able to be a football player and so the fact that I'm here and he's there means so much to me. And through the structure of the ritual, they're building the body of the group and they're building psychological safety because they're each sharing a part of themselves in a way that then they're saying, "I am interested in the release of this spell and I'm going to burn this thing that means something to me." And through that sacrificial ritual, they die and then they're reborn, right, metaphorically as a team.

Priya Parker:

And Ted lasso and the writers of that show, I think in so many ways, first show a very different type of a host through embodying the values he hopes to create in his team. But there's a lot of thoughtful, invisible structure that I think as a coach, he keeps seeing and assessing with his assistant coaches, what's the need now? Where are the players at? What is it that we need to do in order to begin to shift what this group is and can be? And the foil... How was that?

Damon Klotz:

That was amazing. I feel like we could have done the whole episode just analyzing Ted Lasso [inaudible 00:45:16]-

Priya Parker:

Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. Well, you're asking the right questions because clearly I'm like, "This is so interesting."

Priya Parker:

And then Succession, you're totally right, it's the foil. It's all authority. It's all status. It's power consolidation in the father. I mean, it's sort of like... And then he sets up. I mean, he's a leader of chaos. He sets up within his family structure and then within his company structure, fear and loathing, but in part ambivalence, right? It's like Jo Freeman, the feminist scholar wrote this beautiful essay in the '70s or '80s called The Tyranny of Structurelessness and part of Roy Kendall... Wait, what's his name? Roy's senior's power is the tyranny of structurelessness and the tyranny of ambivalence. And he's able to maintain his power and status because he keeps everybody else off balance.

Priya Parker:

And in some cases, in different seasons, like he turns up the volume so much that it's just cruel and so explicit, and these kind of hazing rituals of cruelty. But it's always, there's deep ritual and deep codes in that family system when they gather, whether it's around the Thanksgiving dinner or whether it's in their private airplane or their private jet. And the codes are basically that there is an authority figure and one does not fully know what might happen. And each person basically feels deeply unsafe and knows that... And that power in that system is proximity to the source in that moment.

Damon Klotz:

And in some ways, I frame Succession as being this foil, because I feel like maybe there isn't structure or power, but I think there actually like what you brought up is that Logan Roy does actually think deeply about the container and he gives everyone this false sense of hope that they could be a co-host, that they could be the person who gets to like design the container with him. But like you said, like he's sort of like a master evil facilitator in so many ways because he knows how to play all these people against each other that allows him to continue to always have the power.

Priya Parker:

Absolutely. And I think earlier I said people think I'm about gathering more. I think similarly, gathering is not good in and of itself. Gathering is a tool. It can be used for good. It can be used for evil. It can be used to make people feel connected. It can be made people to feel isolated. And gathering is a form of power. And with that power comes responsibility and care. And some of the greatest evil dictators in history were phenomenal gatherers.

Priya Parker:

And so I don't come into this with a naive lens, but I do come into it by saying that it goes back to our earlier conversations. Like by wishing power away, you're doing no one any favors. We need to begin to understand how power is going to manifest in the groups that we are gathering and protect our guests and connect them and temporarily equalize them, and think about what it actually looks like, in a very practical way, to create gatherings that allow people to be seen and safe and then do their best work. I mean, gathering well is also an extraordinary process for creativity, for collaboration, for breakthrough science. It's not just about how you're making people feel. It's also about what human beings are able to discover and to build when they're able to interact in ways that are fruitful.

Gary Ware Interview:

Damon Klotz:

So when I was in the research and writing phase of this episode, I knew that there was a special guest that I wanted to invite on. Now this is someone who is a very important member of our culture first community. This is also someone that I've had the pleasure of sharing a stage with Gary. Welcome to the culture first podcast.

Gary Ware:

Damon, hey, so happy to be here.

Damon Klotz:

So we're going to be chatting today about your learnings from the show Ted Lasso, one that I know you're a big fan on. People are looking at any of this video content, they'll probably see your sign up there that says believe, which is probably making many Ted Lasso stans very jealous. In order to set the scene for the people listening, if I find out information about you online, I'll learn that you're a facilitator, you're a keynote speaker, you're an author, you're a dad, you're an improv teacher. But let's imagine that a curious 10 year old walks up to you, doesn't know any of that and just says, excuse me, what do you do for work? How do you answer?

Gary Ware:

Yeah, I would look that little kiddo in the eye and I say that I help grownups be the best version of themselves using play. And they would probably look at me and say, what do you talk about play? You know, shouldn't all grownups play or, you know, they might be like my niece and say, I thought only kids play. And I'll say, well, guess what? Grownups can play too and they should play. And so, yeah, that's what I would say.

Damon Klotz:

They might see you as this kind of like interesting school teacher for adults who keeps adults connected to what it means to learn how to be curious and play.

Gary Ware:

Yes. Oh, I love that. Oh, there's something there. But yes, that's exactly it. You know, helping adults re-learn what it's like to be a kid again.

Damon Klotz:

So before we dive into your experience with the show, Ted Lasso, I guess it might be, you know, the reason I wanted to bring you on as part of this episode, like I said, is that, you know, you are a special part of this Culture First community. You're a Culture First chapter lead. You've joined me on stage at Culture First events. Maybe I just might want to start with, how did you find this community? What was it like when you first found this community? And what does it mean to be part of it?

Gary Ware:

Yeah, I found it actually serendipitously. It was, you know, when you really need something, things just happen to pop up. Being a facilitator, being a trainer and all the things that I do, it wasn't what I went to school for. I actually went to school for marketing and communication. And when I found the community, it was when I was pivoting in my career. It was after... A business relationship went south and I was at this point where I'm like, what do I do next? And then I decided, yes, I wanted to be a facilitator. I want to shift culture so that other people don't have to end up in a situation like me with a failed business relationship and all that other stuff. And I was like, I wonder if there is community like that because in my previous career, I That was everything. Like I was tied into any sort of community that was about marketing and whatnot. And that had been a blessing. And lo and behold, the moment I like sort of put that out into existence, I was fortunate enough to get connected to Culture Craig on LinkedIn. And he was talking about this thing, called Culture First and this community about, making the world of work better and actually taking action to do that. And I was like, That's what I'm looking for. And so, you know, we connected and a few missed opportunities for us to actually connect in person. Then the pandemic hit and chapter lead, Emily Goodson was in LA and was moving to San Diego. And then that's where Craig said, hey, you need to talk to this guy, Gary. He's interested. And then the rest is history. And it's been like three plus years or so.

Damon Klotz:

Amazing. It's a, I always love these stories of how people have found their, their group when they needed to find a group. And I feel like that is a, and you know, for anyone who's listening to this show, you know, you might know culture first is like a podcast that you can just listen to and you just absorb information and that's great. But there's this other layer to this culture first world that culture really curates, which is where people are in conversation and community with each other that they're attending these chapter events. So I just want to Open the invitation to people if you want to go deeper, if you feel like you're at a bit of a crossroads, if you're looking for a moment where you're like, I feel like there's a conversation I need to have either with myself or with others, then people like Gary and Emily and other good friends at Culture Amp are running great spaces. So I just want to first say we really appreciate everything you do for the Culture First community and all the magic that you bring to it.

Gary Ware:

Awesome, thank you, appreciate it.

Damon Klotz:

So in this episode, we're really looking at Ted Lasso versus like Logan Roy succession versus Ted Lasso, the polar opposites and somehow there's a little bit of through line between these types of cultures and companies and our learnings from them. So I guess in order to set up why I've invited you on, how did you first find Ted Lasso? What was your experience the first time you just sort of saw the show? What was it about it that really kind of like stuck out to you that you're like, well, this is different.

Gary Ware:

Yeah, so Ted Lasso is on Apple Plus. It's on a platform that you need a subscription to be able to access. And at the time I had heard about it through some friends, I didn't have the Apple Plus subscription. And it was after like the fourth person that said, Gary, you watch Ted Lasso, right? I was like, no, I don't. I was like, but everyone keeps thinking that I do. I probably should. I probably should do it. And I asked a friend, a really good friend, matter of fact, he was an employee of mine that worked at that digital marketing agency that I ended up splitting ties with my business partner. And that employee had since left too. And so we had, you know, we have a really good rapport, really good relationship. And he said, he just reminded me of you as a leader when we worked together. And I was like, you know, and he was talking about how he's all about positivity and this, that and the other. And I was like, Okay, that seems like right up my alley. And then again, when it came out, it was like the perfect time where I felt like, you know, when you think about back in, I think when I first got connected with it, like it was late 2021 or so. And so like the world at large, you know, again, we're in this pandemic, you know, we're at home and in the US where I'm currently located, there's, you know, a lot of sort of toxic masculinity and cultures that aren't necessarily the best to be around. So I was looking for something positive, just to like sort of escape in for a little bit. And so my wife was gone with my son to visit her family. So I had a long weekend, nothing to do. I got a trial for Apple Plus and I binge watched like the whole first season and I didn't intend to. I just wanted to watch the first episode. What is this about? And I got

Damon Klotz:

Hmm.

Gary Ware:

sucked in. And I was like, oh, this is good.

Damon Klotz:

Were you a football fan at all or did you learn to appreciate football through the show?

Gary Ware:

I was. I grew up playing football or as in here in the US we call it soccer. And so familiar with the premier league and it was great to see that sort of tie in to that. But at the same time, realized that this is an episode that is about like an office environment that happens to be centered around like football.

Damon Klotz:

Yeah. I think it's one of the big trends that we've seen. And you know, the reason that we're focusing on TV shows is because there has been this kind of, really this pull towards sport as a learning mechanism for performance and culture. When you think about like the amount of brand new Formula One fans due to drive to survive or the golf craze that's happening right now, because Netflix is going to have a golf documentary and we're learning about performance coaching, what it means to succeed. mental health and I think Ted Lasso was kind of like the scripted version of this fascination that we're currently having with sport and so I'm really excited that we're getting a chance to kind of talk about how these things are playing out and what's happening inside of the workplace in terms of some of these learnings and I do should probably caveat all this that there's massive spoiler alerts that we're going to

Gary Ware:

Yes.

Damon Klotz:

be sharing in terms of this so if You're like, oh, this sounds great. Gotta go watch the show. This is one of the few times I'll tell you, like, stop listening to the podcast and like actually probably go watch the show first and Apple TV can get a sponsored spot maybe on this episode because we're plugging it here. But there has been a little bit of analysis on, I guess, the different seasons in terms of Ted Lasso with sort of season one coming out kind of accidentally from their side in the. height of a lot of people's pandemic experience where it was like, this is still happening and I don't know when it's going to end. So basically it was ended up being like a pick me up that we all kind of needed because season one was about like deep positivity. And then

Gary Ware:

Yes.

Damon Klotz:

season two kind of was a bit of a bit of a gut punch and a reality check. It was like a little bit like, oh my God, this is going a little bit dark and it's all about empathy and like vulnerability and how we're checking in. And then Season 3 was on a spiritual journey of happiness and what does it even mean to be happy? That's kind of what I picked up from it. Is that how you kind of saw the season sort of play out in terms of your experience with it?

Gary Ware:

Yes, and I also, because I knew it was a three season arc, I sort of saw it like Star Wars, where like the original trilogy, where like the first season was like a new hope, is like, you know, the call to action, you know, we see our hero go, you know, on this hero's journey, and then, you know, then the Empire strikes back, you have this big twist. And like the dark side is like sort of revealed. And then you return to the Jedi, like sort of like bringing it all home. But I like how you mentioned, especially in season three, you know, the focus on happiness, because there's so many of those themes that you see throughout season three of what are the things that people do that are going to bring them happiness and sometimes is at odds with like the things that we think that we should be doing, like, you know. our pursuit for money and greatness and whatnot.

Damon Klotz:

Now I know you get access to, and also the Star Wars references, I have a feeling that maybe that Sudeikis and the team might have sort of tried to put some of that in there. I know they have an incredible writing team, we thought deeply about that. So I'll have to do a little bit more research to see if there's been any articles written with those two parallels. But you get access to a lot of leaders. You're working directly with leaders, you're having leaders come to you, maybe with a set leadership style that they already have or one that they're trying to emerge into. Based on what you've seen from the character Ted Lasso, how would you describe his leadership style? Is there a certain style of leadership or certain words you would associate with how we saw him?

Gary Ware:

Yeah, the first word that comes to mind that I've been hearing a lot of lately is servant leadership. Someone that, their main job is to serve the people in their care. They may not be seen as the expert per se, but they have the ability to get everyone sort of marching in the right direction. And I see that a lot in Ted, in that he's amazing with details. He can listen very deeply. He understands, like he has amazing EQ, emotional intelligence, and the ability, believe it or not, to make decisions that sometimes they're not easy decisions. And so yeah, that's the leadership style I see in Ted.

Damon Klotz:

Yeah, certainly one that I think people have been sort of writing a lot about is this idea that he understands the system that he's part of and also what his role is. You know, how, what decisions and behaviours should I be embodying in order to get great things out of other people in that sort of servant leadership style. When I was reflecting on this, there was a couple of different things that I've sort of really observed in terms of, I guess. behaviors or styles from Ted, but maybe I might start with you. Are there a couple of key leadership lessons that you've sort of really thought about from watching this show that you would like to share with people?

Gary Ware:

Yeah, one of the big ones is, it's all about like courage and vulnerability. Ted, you know, it's no spoiler that he, the setup is that he comes from the US. He is a football, American football coach, and he is put into his role as, it was almost like as a joke, because Rebecca, who, you know, got ownership of the team, sort of divorced, wanted to ruin, you know, ruin her ex-husband's lives by, you know, putting this American into this position and hopefully everything crumbles and whatnot. And Ted, like you mentioned, like he knows his part in the system and he is very upfront. He's like very vulnerable and he shows that upfront that, hey, look, I don't know this. I don't know the rules of the sport. I'm learning this. And that, in my opinion, is a new age way of leadership, because I feel like the old regime is like, you get a leader that has decades of experience, who's done it a very specific way, and it's going to tell you exactly what you need to do, and there's no sort of way of interpretation. And Ted coming in, and just being straightforward, I feel like that starts to build trust. out of the gates. And that's what we need. We need psychological safety so that people, can start to be the best version of themselves. So that's the first thing that I noticed. And yeah, I'll pause with that.

Damon Klotz:

Yeah, I think some of the words that were kind of, I guess, coming up when you were sharing some of this in terms of, you know, what would you like a leader to be or how, what sort of a leader would you like to work with? You know, you were talking about one that knows how to be vulnerable, one that knows how to acknowledge the need for support. I kind of saw that a lot in season two was this, it's one thing to be vulnerable as a leader, it's another thing to be vulnerable and then also be willing to commit to action for change. So I sort of feel like that was one of the things there. Um, you touched on like ability to make hard decisions and ones that go against the grain. And I could think of an example of when he pulled off the best player on the team, Jamie Tartt, cause Jamie Tartt didn't listen to the, you know, he basically broke the system. They were trying to do something as a system. They were trying to do something as a collective and Jamie Tartt went against it and he took him off, even though it would be, you know, no, no coach in their right mind takes off Christiano Ronaldo or Leo Messi. but regardless of what they do and he was willing to make some of those decisions.

Gary Ware:

You're right. Like normally, the school of thought is this is the best player. Yes, they're a wild card. However. they get goals. And if we bring this back again to like, sort of like, sort of at work and team environments, that often happens a lot. Like maybe there's a salesperson that generates lots of revenue for the organization and they probably don't, maybe they don't have the best attitude. Maybe they do some things that aren't conducive of the values of the company, but yet they're bringing in revenue. So, we sort of overlook some of those things because, You know, as a company, the company, you know, even though they may value authenticity, they, you know, they need to bring in revenue. Well, that again is an old way of thinking and that can only get you so far. And it's going to, you know, in the long run is going to start to poison the, you know, the company as far as the culture. If you don't sort of nip that right off the bat.

Damon Klotz:

No, definitely. There is certainly in my experience working in Silicon Valley, there was sort of a certain style of company that would have policies around like we don't tolerate, you know, brilliant, terrible people. They have more, you know, direct language

Gary Ware:

Yep.

Damon Klotz:

when they talk about that. But, you know, I think it is, it is hard, especially I think in times of economic distress, when like short-term wins are so important in order to maybe keep runway or keep the company going. But in order to play a little bit of a longer game. It kind of reminds me of the podcast episode with Simon Sinek, who kind of was like, he told me, he's like, Damon, I'm an optimist and I always believe that if we can look at this thing with a little bit of a, you know, what he was talking about, a longer term view, the infinite game, finite games are only gonna get us so far if we're willing to look at this. And, you know, I think it's a good question to ask of leaders is like, how long in advance are you willing to plan for? how long are you willing to try this system in order to succeed? If you're joining a startup, it's like, do you have a three year plan and then you wanna be acquired or is this like a hundred year organization that you're trying to build and actually understand their leadership style in terms of the system that they're gonna build around it in order to achieve that goal. One of the other things that I think was really present throughout this show, and it kind of was in contrast with another character, which is this idea of authenticity. So the character, Nate, starts off as someone who is clearly lacking in psychological safety inside of that culture, doesn't feel like he has any real role to perform outside of tasks that even he second guesses himself on. We see him... emerge as a character who then has a leader who says I trust you and I want your opinion and create safety and we see his authentic side come out and then there's this huge pivot where he basically changes his entire persona in order to achieve success and we see how it really eats at him as a person. And then we sort of see Ted on the other hand sticking to his authentic self. even when the company, sorry, even when the team doesn't do well, which would make you think when the team doesn't perform well, maybe you need to change something. So I wonder if you had any reflections on, I guess, authenticity through and how it can kind of play out in terms of when things are going well versus when things are not going well.

Gary Ware:

It goes back to the long game, what you mentioned, the infinite game that Simon Sinek talks about. And I have firsthand knowledge. So I had, man, probably about a decade ago, I worked for this startup digital marketing company, and I had a superior that was just like Nate's character, where you can tell that the actions that they were making were just... You know, they were game plays to help them succeed. But there was maybe some insecurities or some things there, you know, not allowing people to get close to them. And, you know, yes, on paper, they started doing well, but then it started to the trust started to erode after a while because this company thought that after four years they would be done and acquired and whatnot. And so I think the person that's what they were, they're like, you know what? I just need to last for four years.

Damon Klotz:

Mm-hmm.

Gary Ware:

that we get the buyout, we're out, but we're on year six. We're at year seven. And people are starting to lose trust in this person because of just the vibe that they're putting off, how they are doing things for their own gain and sacrificing other people, a lot like how Nate was, they're belittling people. And again, the company as a whole, we're doing well, but we have another leader. who, it's so funny, he had been authentic from day one. And his ideas weren't necessarily the most ideas that people liked because it required sacrifice. And it was something where you just had to trust the unknown and it wasn't like an immediate upside in revenue. And in the beginning, that other leader used to belittle him. saying like, oh my God, this guy doesn't know what he's talking about. Yada, yada, yada. But he stayed true to himself. And at the end of the day, when after the three years and we hit the sort of dip and we had to sort of climb out of that, everyone was looking at that other boss and was like, I think he knows what he's what he's talking about. And he stayed consistent. And so I feel like the lesson, again, bringing it back to Ted Lasso is a lot of this stuff, to be honest, is a crapshoot. You know, you could be a jerk and be successful, or you could be a jerk and not be successful. You can be really authentic and supportive and have upside and there's a lot of things that are outside of our control. But at the end of the day, it goes back to the Maya Angelou quote, people will remember how you made them feel. They won't necessarily remember the things that you said to them. So for me, I... And maybe it's because I live in Southern California, and we're sort of like that, you know what, peace, love, and all that other stuff. But I believe if you could take care of people, and again, follow more of how Ted is, and be your authentic self, whatever that is, it's gonna pay dividends. It might not at first.

Damon Klotz:

Yep. I think the way that I really picked up on that was like that consistency that like

Gary Ware:

Yeah.

Damon Klotz:

even there's like, you know, in order to trust sometimes the only way that you can sort of trust someone is by trusting someone. Like there's like, there's nothing I can do or say right, right now

Gary Ware:

Yeah.

Damon Klotz:

to make you trust me more. But what I'm willing to do is be myself, be consistent and like take you on this journey. And that consistency helps people navigate the unknown. There is, I think it'd be really remiss of me to not talk about this word because when I associate this word in the workplace, I do think of you. So the word play and, you know, guests are also listeners are going to also hear from Priya Parker and she's going to be talking about these two shows and I guess the role of ritual and gathering and kind of how we can also think about this idea that, you know, symbols really impact our experience as well. The use of symbols. Given that she sort of spoke about the gathering element of it, I would love to maybe hear your assessment on how you sort of play in the culture of Richmond Football Club.

Gary Ware:

Yeah, for me, play is, yes, action. We can do things and it's, we're playing the game, we're doing things, but it's also a way of being, playfulness. And that is one of the things that I started to see throughout, like, take for example, in season three, when ideally, you know, Richmond should probably be doubling down on practice, you know, they're ranked, you know, at the bottom. you know, they're not necessarily doing that well and You know Ted realized like no, you know, let's take a moment, you know, and Let's do something else. That's when he takes him into the sewers and then it ends it up Sort of backfiring on them because there's a shot, you know a shot of them going to the sewers and then you know They got made fun of even more. But again that whole thing of realizing that It's more than just doing the work It's all about like, hey, how can we create an experience? How can we, as Pira mentioned, what are the rituals that are going to bring us together so that we can grow? And it's more than just the work. So, and I saw that time and time again, where they would do things that would be a little bit seen as unconventional, but yet there's learning lessons and thinking about play and playing, they're... there's so much growth that happens. If you think about any sort of activity where you're in this state of play, others will say a state of flow, like you're getting real time feedback and you are seeing obstacles as opportunities. Whereas sometimes if you're just in that sort of work and grind, you don't get that growth, you don't get that camaraderie.

Damon Klotz:

And if you look at sort of the journey of how that played out, at season one, you know, is the team not doing too well, really not in cohesion with each other and not even understanding how to be part of a system. And massive spoiler alert, if you go to like the final episodes of season three and how much of a culture they've created and a sense of play, the way that they acknowledged Ted for his work through the musical, like.

Gary Ware:

Yes!

Damon Klotz:

That is play, that is connection, that is trust, that is working as a system. They all knew their parts. Like that also teaches you how to be a good football team by understanding how to actually put on a show. So did you have any reactions when you saw that?

Gary Ware:

Yeah, I did. And Sound of Music is one of my favorite musicals of all time. Anyways, so there's that. But it's a great, again, finale of bringing everything together and to see the growth of each of these of everyone on the team. And you're absolutely right. In the beginning, they were. It's very ironic because they're playing a sport, but yet they're not playful. You know, you know, it's very rigid. It's very, you know, eye for an eye. You know. very individual, but then as the, you know, the arc again, you know, goes in and then they get to the point where, like what you said, like it's things that when people are under stress, they might have like sort of flip flop, but they realized, no, let's stay the course. We wanna do this. And you can see this in some of the actual game, you know, scenes in there where, you know, towards the end of, you know, end of the series, again, Jamie Tartt, one of the best players on the team. In theory, he should be doing these things. He should be taking free kicks and stuff like that. But the fact that he wants to pass this on to someone else and that one is a great art for that character, Jamie Tartby, because in the beginning he was very no me, maybe, you know, like in the first season, like, you know, he would go and score goals and he would be chanting for himself and whatnot. And then he to see him learn how to be a team player and to be very like, you know, have empathy and want to share it. Like, oh man, it just, it's awesome.

Damon Klotz:

I think we could do a whole other episode of like the arc of Jamie Tartt and I've seen interviews where they actually tried to match his persona to his hairstyle and like the different basically his hair had to change based on the types of Premier League players that they were trying to

Gary Ware:

Yeah!

Damon Klotz:

emulate and he ended season three with like the Jack Grealish hair and Jack Grealish is a player who, who you know many people's scolded for like joining for one of the biggest transfer fees ever leaving his boyhood club Aston Villa to go to Man City and saying that he's a waste of money, he's not talented, doesn't fit the system and arguably was key to what, as a Chelsea fan, is really hard to admit, but one of the greatest seasons ever for a football team that Man City just pulled off.

Gary Ware:

Yeah, no, agreed. And all those like subtleties, like the writers, they definitely did their homework and they would have like these little Easter eggs in there and all that stuff. And yeah, I agree, 100%. But yeah.

Damon Klotz:

So I've got two last questions that I want to, we're going to close on something that I think is really nice about Ted as a character. But before we get the niceness of Ted, let's go and use this foil that I'm using. In order for Ted to be great, we need some sort of darkness on the other side that makes him shine so much. And that sort of contrast I'm using is the character from Succession, Logan Roy. So in Succession, that main character, for those who aren't too familiar, you know, Logan Roy is a... media titan, he's built this incredible company from scratch. It's very, you know, it's based upon many different family owned media conglomerates that we're all familiar with. And he makes a lot of tough decisions and he makes tough decisions. And it feels like without much regard for opinions or perspectives of others and his unilateral decision making ends up having a really big effect on the company's longterm success. Whereas Ted has like in you know, created something like the Diamond Dogs in order to like solve personal and professional problems. It's like we're all in this together. And I think there's something like the whole Diamond Dogs things is beautiful. I think we all need people in our corner, but I wonder if there is something you saw about the leadership style of Logan of being incredibly direct and action orientated that you actually see something that, you know, helps us working with leaders who do see the world a little bit like straight down the line like that.

Gary Ware:

Yeah, I think. It's a, that's a super exaggeration, right? That is, and people will see that and they'll say, see, look at that, like as an excuse to have that sort of behavior. Now, the things that we can emulate, decisiveness. As a leader, you have to do, and sometimes you're by yourself and you have to make these decisions. That, I totally get it. It's the things where, when we start to lose the humanity, you know, because, If you ask someone, what does it mean to be assertive? If you ask someone who's not very assertive, they would see someone as assertive as being aggressive. And what I mean by assertive, if an assertive person is someone who can be very straightforward and speak their mind, and they respect the humanity of themselves and then the other person. So when that's aggressive, it's gonna make decisions and they don't care about the humanity of the other person. You know, they don't mind, you know, they don't care if they have to belittle someone or whatever to get whatever's. need it and I feel like that's the extreme. So what I see like in someone like Logan is like, you have the ability to make a decision, decisions are hard and to like just own it, like this is what we're gonna do. And sometimes you have to do that as a leader. And can we do this while also respecting the others around us?

Damon Klotz:

which was definitely something that Logan didn't really, like he had no issues with firing people who had been in this company for 25 years. And just, he's like, it's not working, get rid of them. No, no empathy towards it. No like thank you for your time. No ritual around it. Like, you know, and, but there is also, I think, and you know, given the, you know, we're. having this conversation where the world from an economic perspective is very different from like the last 10 to 15 years of deep prosperity and where everything was just up and to the right. Decisions do need to be made, hard decisions do need to be made, but there's a way to do this with humanity through deep empathy, great communication and sort of taking people on that journey with you, which I think is one of the big lessons from Ted. So as we, as we round up this little analysis on, on Ted Lasso. My final thought is I did watch this interview where I saw the football pundit and former Manchester United player Gary Neville. He was interviewing Jason Sudeikis, the show co-creator and person who plays Ted Lasso. And he said that for Ted Lasso to be realistic, then he needs to be sacked because Premier League managers don't last that long. You know, they're under intense pressure. And I think what was interesting about this show, like you said, over this kind of like Star Wars three episode arc is we do see Ted progress from... imposter to then someone under deep amounts of pressure, but then rather than fire them, which is the typical Premier League style. And you know, I support Chelsea who likes to fire people for fun. We've had more managers than I can probably admit nearly years I've been alive over the my course of my time as a fan. But by giving him time, I guess what we see, which is very different is that he does find happiness, his element, high performance. The team also is able to, ironically. have succession, which is the show that we're using to kind of contrast it is, is that there is a succession plan in place in Ted Lasso. So I wonder if there's any closing remarks that you kind of have on what that show has taught us about giving leaders time, understanding that we're a part of a system and any, I guess, yeah, any kind of closing thoughts for any of the other Ted Lasso stans out there.

Gary Ware:

Yep. So one thing with that, thinking about leaders. If you're honest with yourself, there's a specific leader for a specific, you know, sort of part in an organization. And sometimes as a leader, your time has come. But often we, for whatever reason, we don't necessarily, you know, want to, you know, realize that ourselves or, you know, or as an organization, we don't want to, you know, well, we like them. And so on the succession thing, I know that, you know, with Ted Lasso, he realized like he did what he... He did what he needed to do and it was his time to go. Now, and again with the show, I know as fans of it, we loved living in that universe and to see it go by after three seasons is very heartbreaking. But in all the interviews, they said, they, to keep going would be a disrespect for the series and whatnot. And again, bringing it back to leadership, sometimes we have to realize when our time is up. And there is someone that I admire deeply. His name is Will Reynolds. He runs an agency called Seer Interactive. He started it 20 plus years ago in his garage. And he grew it to a multi-billion dollar organization, multiple offices, you know, all over the US and hundreds of employees. And it got to a point where he realized that he was not the CEO that the company needed to get to the next level. And he sacked himself. He demoted himself to VP of Innovation, and he brought in another CEO. And that, I have the utmost respect for him to have that sort of self-awareness to realize, we need someone else. And so I feel like from a leader, you should always be checking in to find out, is this still the right thing for me? Am I still growing? Am I still helping other people grow? Or... Is it time for something else?

Damon Klotz:

Which I think is one of the reasons these two shows marry so well together when you analyze them is because they both have workforce planning as a

Gary Ware:

Yeah.

Damon Klotz:

as part of it, right? It's like, who do we bring in? Who succeeds them? How does this work? How do we know when to pass the baton over to someone else? And are we going to do it in a way where the next person can be set up for success? And that done a really good job of thinking about this? Or are we going to hold on till the bitter end and then cause absolute chaos and watch it burn? So big spoiler alerts for both shows there, but

Gary Ware:

Yeah.

Damon Klotz:

for those who know, you know.

Gary Ware:

Yes.

Damon Klotz:

Awesome, well Gary, really appreciate you as a culture first chapter leader, someone who has a lot of passion and expertise for this. Your amazing wife has that belief sign behind you which is incredible. Just want to thank you so much for coming on and sharing some of your thoughts and reflections. This has been a great conversation.

Gary Ware:

Thank you so much, Damon. I want to acknowledge you for being such an amazing host, holding space. I feel very taken care of and yeah, I appreciate it.

Damon Klotz:

Amazing.