Amy Gallo's guide to working with difficult people

Amy Gallo: if you do not have a clearly defined culture, the default is that there's no conflict. The default becomes this artificial harmony. We just agree, we get along, because of those exact reasons that we're hardwired for likability. We like to work in positive, you know, friendly workplaces. And if we default to that, we're missing out on so much, , when we work in places where there's no disagreement, there are ideas, opinions, insights, perspectives, feedback, that don't get voiced,

this is one of the, sort of, lowest hanging fruits for a leader, and one of the most important things, is to set norms around conflict. How do we disagree? When is it okay to say, I don't see it the same way?

You have to say it over and over and over. Because again, you're battling those natural human instincts to not do that, to keep things harmonious, to not rock the boat. So you have to do it to the point where really, your employees should be rolling their eyes, like, Okay, yes, I get it, we disagree, yep, it's okay. Because that gives them that permission.

Storytelling is such a key way to define and convey culture. And so you should be telling stories about conflicts.

Damon Klotz: Hello, and welcome back to Culture First, the podcast that uncovers what it takes to build a better world of work. I'm your host Damon Klotz, and today's episode is a special one. This episode is going to sound a bit different for good reason. I had the privilege of recording this live in front of an audience at South by Southwest Sydney, and I couldn't be more excited to share it with you.This marks our third episode that we've recorded live from South by Southwest. Long time listeners might remember last year's conversation with Sarah Walsh, the head of Women's Football Australia. We talked about high performance on and off the pitch, just as the Matildas were making history in the Women's World Cup semi finals. Today's episode is just as powerful, but we're diving into something that we all face, conflict and working with difficult people. It is a daily reality in modern work, and my guest today is the perfect expert to help us unpack it. Amy Gallo is the author of Getting Along, How to Work with Anyone, Even Difficult People and a contributing editor at the Harvard Business Review as well as the co host of HBR's Women at Work podcast. Amy and I explore the importance of conflict in the workplace, how a poorly defined culture can amplify it, and, well, we also bond over our shared love for the show's succession. Stick around to the end where Amy actually maps out the 8 archetypes of difficult people from her book, and we have a little fun comparing them to our favourite Wasted Eye of Roy Coe characters. Alright, let's dive into my conversation with Amy Gallo. So today on the Culture First podcast, I'm speaking with author and workplace expert Amy Gallo. We're going to be talking about workplace culture, feedback, conflict, why sometimes working with others can feel easy and other times it can feel really difficult. Really, really hard. Companies that are drowning under the weight of conflict might feel a little bit like the company Waystar Royco from Succession, which we are going to be doing a deep dive on at the end of this episode. More on that. And then companies with no conflict have what Patrick Lencioni calls artificial harmony. Where it all appears like it's going really well, but in the hallways of the office, if you still spend time in one. In the Zoom meeting, DMs that you really hope are actually DMs and you're not sharing to the entire company. And in the private Slack channels, there is a sea of gossip and back channeling with all the feedback people wish they could say. Hopefully what sits in between those two worlds is what we at Culture Amp call a culture first company. A culture that is intentional about how people work together with the goal of high performance to achieve a greater mission. So with all that being said, Amy, thank you so much for coming all the way down to Australia for having this conversation with me.

So today on the Culture First podcast, I'm speaking with author and workplace expert Amy Gallo. We're going to be talking about workplace culture, feedback, conflict, why sometimes working with others can feel easy and other times it can feel really difficult. Really, really hard. Companies that are drowning under the weight of conflict might feel a little bit like the company Waystar Royco from Succession, which we are going to be doing a deep dive on at the end of this episode. More on that. And then companies with no conflict have what Patrick Lencioni calls artificial harmony. Where it all appears like it's going really well, but in the hallways of the office, if you still spend time in one. In the Zoom meeting, DMs that you really hope are actually DMs and you're not sharing to the entire company. And in the private Slack channels, there is a sea of gossip and back channeling with all the feedback people wish they could say. Hopefully what sits in between those two worlds is what we at Culture Amp call a culture first company. A culture that is intentional about how people work together with the goal of high performance to achieve a greater mission. So with all that being said, Amy, thank you so much for coming all the way down to Australia for having this conversation with me.

Amy Gallo: Thank you for having me. It's fun to be here.

Damon Klotz: In order to make this equitable, I did fly in from the U. S. on Sunday as well, so we both had the same amount of jet lag, and then I saw the session at South By with the CEO of 8sleep, which makes me really feel like I haven't slept a good night for about a decade.

Amy Gallo: that's right.

Damon Klotz: But, we are here, we have made it, we are live, so I've known your writing and your work for quite a while now, but our origin story really started this year. And I'm at South by Southwest in Austin, and I do need to say that this next part of this story is going to sound a little bit ridiculous, but please do bear with me. So, this is like the mic drop moments that we get to do. When our mutual friend, Esther Perel, invited us to sit front row for her conversation with comedian Trevor Noah. Now that's a sentence that I don't say lightly, I know that is a ridiculous sentence to say out loud. And if you're fans of Esther or Trevor Noah, they are as lovely, if not lovelier, in person than you would really hope. You know, sometimes they say, don't meet your heroes, and then you're like, but Esther and Trevor, lovely people.

Amy Gallo: Lovely. I mean, it's such an interesting, I still think about moments from that conversation.

Damon Klotz: Yeah, definitely like for those listening to this episode, or who are live in the room, do not leave to go listen to that. But, it is an incredible conversation that was live taped at South by Southwest. So we were front row watching a podcast being taped and now we are on a podcast stage doing a live taping. This is our full circle moment. So shall we get started?

Amy Gallo: Let's do it.

Damon Klotz: So the question I ask all my guests when I have a chance to interview them at the start is how do you describe What you do for work to a curious 10 year old.

Amy Gallo: I ask them, have you ever had a fight with a friend? And how did you feel afterward? And I work with people to try to make sure that those fights go better.

feel

Damon Klotz: like 10 year olds are definitely still in kind of like playground conflict. They're definitely still fighting. So I think they can definitely understand that. Sometimes I've asked people that question and they've like, someone's asked me that question on a podcast because they know it's when I asked, I think I gave like a 19 paragraph answer. And I'm like that 10 year old definitely left like after sentence two.

Amy Gallo: well, and if you think about it, 10 year olds. You ask them if they've had a fight and they have no, they just answer. They don't think, oh, should I mention I have a fight? I don't know. I'm just, do I, will I sound disagreeable? They're like, yeah, I've had a fight. I had one yesterday.

Damon Klotz: Yeah, if anything, we really know what's going on when we're children and then, somehow adulthood makes it all way more complicated, but

Amy Gallo: Yeah, I have this theory that we're all born emotionally intelligent human beings and we have it hammered out of us for our entire childhood and then you're 20 and you walk into a bookstore and you go oh a book on emotional intelligence, I should learn that, like I should, you know, it's and yet it's in there, it's in there.

Damon Klotz: So we do, do um, we don't just bring our professional resume to work, obviously it's the thing that we think about a lot. We also bring our personal resume, to work. So, I want to go back to before Amy Gallo was a HBR editor, an author, a speaker, or even a management consultant. What did your family environment, something that we sort of had in common, like growing up with divorced parents and your upbringing, teach you about conflict and handling, I guess, meaningful conversations between people who might not get along?

Amy Gallo: Yeah, you know, I love to joke that having divorced parents made me become a conflict expert, but the truth was that their divorce wasn't that contentious. I never saw much fighting, um, and there wasn't even actually that artificial harmony going on. It was, you know, pretty simple. I think more what made me interested in this work was just my intense, desire, and curiosity to understand why humans acted the way they did. you know, I was the kid on the playground when there was a fight that broke out. That I just screamed fight, because I was like, why aren't we all standing here watching this? Like, come on, this is interesting. And I think, from a very young age, into university, into my first job as a management consultant, I cared less about the content of what we were doing, what was being said, and more about what was, the unvoiced content. things that were happening between people. I love cringe moments. That's partly why I love succession, it's, my favorite kind of comedy is the comedy that makes my husband walk out of the room cause he's so uncomfortable. And I think it's because I'm watching for what are we not saying? why are we not landing? I actually also love watching a conversation between two people who don't realize yet that they're miscommunicating, but they're totally talking around each other I'm like, oh it's coming. They're about to realize, oh this is fun. And I think most people would find that terrible, but it's, I just find it interesting in that how we, think. We're coming off to people, how we think we understand other people is sort of, a a circus, right? It's sort of just this comedy of errors, and if you can find the delight and curiosity in it, and then I also have this sort of problem solving mentality, so then I want to solve it. Um, so I think that's really what led me, to this work. the other thing I can't help but mention about my childhood is, you know, I was raised by a single mom, and I think she really instilled in my brother and me this sense of, you can do anything. And I, so nothing ever fell out of bounds, out of reach. And I that means both from a career perspective, but also from a human relationship perspective, from an interaction. We were given perhaps too much permission to explore and see the world, and that really, really informed. this work that I do now.

Damon Klotz: You said that you're a problem solver. Have you ever overheard one of those conversations and been like, so sorry to interrupt. You don't know me. I'm Amy Gallo from Harvard. can I help?

Amy Gallo: I have, it's amazing how much you broker, you end up brokering situations and it's in random places like an airport, a line to, you know, board an airport or a coffee shop. Um, I don't introduce myself as from Harvard and I never say my name in case it goes wrong and I can, I don't want to be blamed later. But I will say, oh, I think what's going on or, you know, I will sometimes, even just subtle things like. Oh, I think she's just anxious about flying. Right? Or, oh, I, you know, or someone will be really annoyed at some at, at a waitress or something. I'm like, I bet she's having a hard day. Like, just moments of trying to encourage empathy between people. I do love to give unsolicited advice, advice, but I, I never attach my name to it,

Damon Klotz: so if that's happened to you and you're like, hey, you look really familiar, uh, this is Amy and she doesn't put an A on, on, on it when giving that advice.

Amy Gallo: That's right.

Damon Klotz: Can you tell me about a piece of feedback? Let's do this whole memory lane sort of trip, like a piece of feedback from an earlier stage in your career that really changed your behavior.

Amy Gallo: Oh yeah, can I, am I allowed to curse?

Damon Klotz: Yeah, we will, uh, usually this is not an episode many children listen to. It's mainly 25 to 55 year old females in the US, uh, working in HR. That is the, what Spotify tells me. They love Taylor Swift and Beyonce. Um, but if children are listening, Amy is about to swear.

Amy Gallo: Yes, so the feedback I got actually was someone who I really liked, I worked closely with when I was a management consultant, and I trusted him, which is why I think he was willing to say this. So we were in a meeting, it was a late night, it was one of those we had promised a client something that we shouldn't have promised them, so we were putting in long hours, and we were in this team meeting, and I had shared some idea about what we should put into the deck that was going to the client, and he looked at me and he said, do you know that Actually, most of the time, your sentences end with a silent, you And I, I mean, jaw dropped. And I thought, okay, tell me more, which is what I've been trained to say when someone gives me tough feedback. And he explained that I just could be really condescending. And that my tone of voice sounded like I was trying to prove I knew something, not that I actually was curious or interested in sharing the ideas. And he was 100 percent right. And it really, from that moment really changed. my family would argue I don't do a great job of it, but that both how I communicate in terms of the tone of voice, but also how I think about my intention. What am I trying to communicate in that moment? Am I really trying to prove I'm right?

Yes, probably. Can I put that down for a moment? Can I actually try to connect with the person? Can I try to think about what would be valuable for them instead? it was a big turning point. Actually, I don't. I don't write about it in the book, Getting Along, but it's a big part of why I identify. as one of the archetypes in the book, which is a know it all. Because, and I wouldn't have actually identified as that. unless my dear friend Rosario had pointed it. out to me.

It It

Damon Klotz: is funny how certain pieces of feedback really like sort of stay with us and I do want to come back to that in a second. But I think underneath that is also like when you get really specific feedback it's really useful. So one of the things that I do a lot of public speaking, a lot of presentations and like, sometimes people come up to you, they're like, Oh, I love that, great job, great speech. And I'm like, I can do absolutely nothing with that feedback because I don't know what part, why did you like it, was there a story, what resonated. So if someone comes up and is like, Oh, I love the podcast. I'm like, which episode, which part of the episode, how did your behavior change? And, um, yeah, specific feedback is really, like the feedback that I, I think the first piece of sort of public speaking feedback I got was, I was like 19 years old speaking in front of 3, 000 people in front of like the entire like leadership team of this company I was at. It was a big deal because I was quite young and it was like my first professional job and there was a professional keynote speaker there. And she said, you're very good, you're very good at speaking, I know this is coming naturally to you, but you are trying to connect with every single person in the audience. I'm like, what do you mean? She's like, you are trying to make eye contact with 3, 000 people. Do know know what that looks what that looks like when you're sitting? And I was like, what do you mean? She's like, you look like you're just like going everywhere. I'm like, oh, okay. So she goes, pick a person on the right, pick a person in the middle, and pick a person on the left, and they become who you deliver your story to. And that way, when you look at the right person, everyone in that area thinks that you're speaking to them. And I literally gave that feedback to one of the Culture Amp execs on stage stage last week, when she was getting a little bit nervous about being on stage. And that has just saved me because it was so specific. I can always like, remember that.

Amy Gallo: Right? It, like, there's so many ways, and even if it didn't come off that way, I bet that feedback about focus not only affected the mechanics of where you turned your head, but how you thought about what you were saying, how you prepared, right? That, I mean, even I think about my friend Rosario's comment, like, it was about my tone of voice in that moment, but ultimately it was really about who I was in terms of my own ego and how I was showing up in the room.

Damon Klotz: In your talks, you mentioned that sort of psychological safety, which was a term coined by Amy Edmondson. It's not like a certificate that you get to achieve. You don't be like, Congratulations, as of this week, we are now a psychologically safe team. And I feel like it's sort of the same for conflict and difficult conversations. It's a, it's a muscle that you have to work on. one of the things that, I learned from that session, talk with Trevor Noah and Esther was, Trevor talks about like how comedians are really good at being very pointed when they're asking questions and I think it's something we can all get better at in the workplace. So, his pointed version of this question would be, don't tell me about conflict that you've had, can you tell me about the last time that you experience conflict in the workplace and how you handled it. And the difference is, sometimes when we ask someone a question, it's like, tell me about a time you've experienced conflict. And a bit like me trying to present, the scattered brain comes in, because you think about every time you've experienced conflict, which could be in the thousands, depending on how long you've been working. So what was the last time that Amy Gallo was in conflict?

Amy Gallo: Oh, um, there's actually a good, I'm trying to think about the time sequence because there's a lot I can choose from and I would love to tell you as a conflict expert that I really either don't have conflicts or that they go, really smoothly but that's just not true, because I'm human, and conflicts are hard for everyone and I get the sweaty palms, I get the Nerves, I'm like, ugh, this is, terrible. So I actually, I would say, the most recent one was a Disagreement over how I was, I'm going to, I can't tell all of it, but I'm going to tell you the sort of general, that there was a disagreement over how we were going to execute, on a project. and actually it was a big, there was a big turning point in this, ongoing project. I've worked on, and we were trying to decide should we continue with the way it is, or should we make it, sort of more continuous? I'm really trying to disguise this I'm sorry. and there were multiple, multiple people involved. And it turned out in the many, many conversations we were having about it, that people started to assign me the role. as the sort of owner of the choice to change. And so then I became the focus of, you know, she's pushing too hard, she's going too fast, she's trying to break what works, this isn't, and then it also, people started portraying, and we can get into the gender aspects of this, as me being in a fight with the person who was sort of more strongly feeling the other Um, and then there's this other thing, Which is, she's also a woman, right? And the truth is, we just disagreed. But everyone was turning it into this drama. And so we had to really, I actually, the first thing I did is went to the other person and said, Let's just get clear on what we believe, and make clear to everyone, including ourselves, that our relationship is strong. Our relationship is not at stake here. What is at stake is the future of this project. I often say that conflict is in the eye of the beholder. You and I can walk away from a discussion, and you can be like, that was an interesting conversation. I'd be like, wow, we just had the biggest fight, right? You don't have the same shared experience, so we had to, it was a conflict that lots of people had created around us, even though we certainly felt the tension, but we didn't feel like we were having a conflict. So it was really about managing, the perception of our interaction.

Damon Klotz: The perception of conflict and there's a whole, that could be a whole nother episode.

Amy Gallo: Yes. And actually I use this term in my book called emotional shrapnel or in sometimes conversational shrapnel, which is that you think the conflict is between you and one other person, but there were all these people, especially if you're in a position of power who are observing and they are, suffering as a result of you either being able to solve that conflict or not solve it or to try to solve it in a super messy way. And you have to be cognizant of that. You don't. You don't only have to repair your relationship with the person who you have the disagreement with, but you have to make sure you have repaired your relationship with the people who've observed and been part of it.

mentioned that as

Damon Klotz: You mentioned as a conflict expert that doesn't mean that you get to avoid it or that big, you know, you get this sort of special pass. I've also come to learn that this also doesn't mean that you can solve problems for immediate family members. you did mention that your husband had been working somewhere for 16 years, but ultimately it came down to, working with someone quite difficult, that meant he decided to leave. So even, even when you're married to a conflict expert, it doesn't mean that you've got everything that you need to solve for these problems. So is there, is there any, I guess, especially for people who feel like they've been at a place for a long time, and they're like, can I change, or is this just an environment or someone, or that, sometimes we hope someone else will leave, we're like, oh don't worry, when that person leaves, then my work will get better. But that's not always the case.

Amy Gallo: No, and it's the situation with my husband really tested, my confidence around my expertise because I, counseled him for two years on how to deal with this boss. And I was like, I wrote a book about how to deal with difficult people. Of course, you're going to get a, like, this is all going to turn around at any moment. And at some point, in fact, he started applying for other jobs. And when he got the job he really wanted, the look on his face, I all of a sudden was like, oh there's my husband. Right? He had just returned to that, the idea of being free of the toxic situation he was in was, and I don't even think we, either of us, him specifically, but also as his partner, I don't, I did not realize that. the toll it was taking over time. And I think, you know, no one ever says, or no one's ever said to me, you know, I quit too soon. I wish I had stuck it out in that place much longer. and that's not to say you should quit your job if things are hard. It's just that I think we often think it will get better, like you said. In fact, I interviewed Bob Sutton, I'm going to say the same curse word, who wrote it's his book's title, called The No Asshole Rule. I interviewed him for my book and He told me this great story about He was at Stanford University. He was sick of all the politics of academia, specifically his department. He was like, I'm out of here. I'm gonna get a different job. He went to Cal Berkeley. And he was like, oh wow, this is even a bigger mess. I'm going back. And he took a pay cut to go back to his old job. And he, was like, he says he's a member of is always browner club because we always think it's going to be better.

it's not. So to actually answer your question, what do you do? I think the best thing you can do is actually set very clear, benchmarks for yourself of these are the three things, four things that I want to be different in my job, that I think actually are possible, right? There might be things you want to be different that aren't possible, but these are the things that I want to be different. I want to be not talked over in meetings. I want to be able to work on a specific type of project. and you set a timeline, three months, six months, a year, and say, okay, if these, two of these five things, three of these five things don't change, then it's time to go. Because I think we can fester jobs where we think it's gonna change, the boss is gonna leave, you know, we're gonna get new funding, whatever it is, it's gonna change. And really we have to focus on what can we control. If that's not going to transform to something that's more tolerable or ideally actually fulfilling, then it's time to start looking. the last thing I'll say on that is that I think you also have to start looking at other options out there. Start networking with people who work at places that you think might be better. Because you might hear some stories of how actually it's not that much better there. You know, workplaces are complicated, humans are messy. it's never going to be perfect. And, you know, I have talked to people who say, Oh, I've left every job after a year, and I think, oh, okay, that might be you, not the job. So you have to also watch for those patterns to make sure you're not just taking the baggage to the new place.

Damon Klotz: I love that. So, Amy and I are clearly outliers. We constantly analyze and dissect sort of workplace trends. We also understand that not everyone is in sort of the trenches like we are on, on these topics. I definitely, when I was growing up, did not think this would be my career. I think I wanted to be like a, I still want to play cricket for Australia, but like at age 35, it's probably not happening, but.

Amy Gallo: Can I just tell you, I just found my second grade journal, and I had written, which is actually very poignant at this moment in time, I had written in the inside cover where you're supposed to write your name, Amy Gallo, first female president of the United States. I was ambitious.

Damon Klotz: Yeah, less than 30 days as someone who lived in the US for eight years, I'm still heavily, well, I think the world's invested right now. Um, so that's the, that's another episode. Uh, we are, we're going to stay on this episode. I want to make sure that we cover sort of conflict fundamentals for people. so I highly recommend that people go watch your South by Southwest talks on conflict. but for those listening now who haven't seen them, when reviewing your work, there was, um, standout lines that I wanted to highlight for people about, like about conflict. conflict is inevitable. We experience task conflict and process conflict at work. Healthy conflict produces good work. Disagreement is not unkind. Saying you disagree with someone does not mean that you think they're an arsehole. I want to swear with you too now. I want to make sure it's not just, Amy Gallo starts swearing a lot on the Culture First podcast. And the need to be liked is the enemy of healthy conflict. So on a foundational level, I would like to think that people hear all of that and say, well, that makes sense. But why do we still find it easier to stay quiet in meetings? Not voice an opposite opinion, or refrain from having important conversations with people that we find difficult to work with.

Amy Gallo: two reasons. Number one, as humans, we are hardwired for likability. It's how we survive in communities and groups. is when people like us, they treat us better. And so of course, we want people to like us, and you should want people to like you. That's, I'm not saying you do, you want to be unlikable, but it does silence us. because we have something that Sunita Saw, who's a professor at Cornell, calls insinuation anxiety. So if we actually disagree with someone, we're afraid about what it might insinuate. We're not afraid of the actual disagreement, but it might insinuate you don't like them, that you think they're ignorant, that you're a disagreeable person. Right, you're, worried about what it means, not just the actual disagreement. So that, there's one, we have to overcome That instinct to live in harmony. The second, piece that, that really is is, um, challenging is that, sorry, the phrase just totally left my head. As it does sometimes. Um, so we, hardwired for likeability. Tell me,

Damon Klotz: me,

Amy Gallo: tell me, ask me the question again, I'm so sorry. I've lost my train.

Damon Klotz: The one subject I did on psychology in my Bachelor of Business, basically, what I remember from that is, if it goes, like, the more you think about it, it goes to the back of your head. And then, like, you have to, like, think about something

Amy Gallo: else. So,

Damon Klotz: I think, I'm gonna ask another

Amy Gallo: Okay, please, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Damon Klotz: just go lightbulb

Amy Gallo: Yeah,

Damon Klotz: and then say it out loud.

Amy Gallo: I'm gonna blame the jet lag.

Damon Klotz: Yes. Um, one of the things that like, I think is true for me is that I think I've survived well in certain environments due to like chaotic things that have happened with my sort of being conflict avoidant. And I, so now the story I tell myself

Amy Gallo: oh my God, I remembered it.

Sorry. I knew it.

Damon Klotz: I just had to start

Amy Gallo: you. You, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's

Damon Klotz: like, my dreams were playing for the Australian

Amy Gallo: and ple. Yeah,

Damon Klotz: And don't edit around this. 'cause this is like what it's really like, um, which is, oh my gosh, Wait. It was about lik likability. Oh my gosh. Oh. Why wait, can I got it? I got it. I really do This time. We are also really focused on, we have a sort of bias toward action. So when we're, when we're questioning, should I do something or should I not do something? We think about all the risks of taking action. We don't take, think about the risks of inaction. So when I'm thinking, should I speak up or should I not? I'm thinking, well, if I speak up, that person might disagree with me. My boss might be mad. Um, someone else might walk out of the room. I don't think about, well, what if I just stay silent? 'cause we think things will stay the exact same. And that's not true because you're actually holding something. So it's both that hardwired for likability, but also that inability to think about the risks of staying silent. And like, not making a decision is making a decision. So like, if you're there and you're like, oh, well, I'll just choose, like, I'm just not going to say anything. Like, that is a decision. That's an active decision that, you know, you do not want to, you know, action that feedback or have a conversation.

Amy Gallo: And you know what? One of the things that actually recently learned this because I, read Dan Pink's book about regret. If you look at all the studies about regret, most of them, The largest majority of regrets are about things people didn't do, not things people did. It's just such a, for me, those moments where I'm thinking about staying silent or not speaking up about something, that is what I think of is like, actually, I will probably regret this because in the moment it'll be comfortable to not say anything, to get, let this meeting finish, for things to move forward. But, It's, in the long run, there's a lot more problem this silence. will create that I'm going to then have to undo.

Damon Klotz: And if you've seen any of the research on see the regrets of the dying, I've yet to see anyone say, Oh, I totally regret standing up for myself in yet to see anyone say, oh I totally regret standing up for myself in that or leaving a toxic culture that was impacting my relationships at home or my ability to sleep well.

Amy Gallo: Yeah, I mean, talk about, I mentioned I don't identify myself by name when I give people unsolicited advice. I actually, for the podcast that I co host, a co host called Women at Work, we did some episodes based on my book where I coached people who were dealing with difficult people. We had four episodes. We found out about a month after they aired that someone who I'd coached got fired. And that sat with me. very heavily because right, she followed my advice and she got fired. We had a followup conversation with her, several, in fact, and she said, you know, I actually don't regret it. Because you, you actually encouraged me to test a few things that I was hesitant to test. But I knew were deal breakers. And so, as soon as I started testing those things, I realized I was probably going to leave the job but they fired me instead, and, you know, she said, I didn't want to be fired, no one wants to be, fired. but ultimately, it was the right thing in the long run.

Damon Klotz: Yeah, it showed the company's true colors in many ways.

Amy Gallo: Exactly.

Damon Klotz: I want to I want to talk about the role that a company culture and relationship strategy ends up having on workplace effectiveness and the connection to conflict. For those who are live in the audience, and if you're listening at home afterwards, you can put your hand up, but I will not know the answer. who here would say that they have a clearly defined culture strategy at their organization? An alarmingly low number. something that you talk about, Amy, is like a relationship strategy, which I think is incredible and I hope there's a lot more work done on relationship strategies. Does anyone have a relationship strategy or a guide to how to work with others? A couple, okay. So, uh, clearly CultureAmp and people like Amy, we lot of do. lot of work I recently had, uh, Seth Godin, who's a sort of, you know, marketing leadership expert on the podcast, and I asked him what his definition of company culture is, and Seth said, um, that the first sentence is, People like us do things like this. And the second sentence is, this is the way things are around here. And the way it gets defined is, what do you let people get away with when something else feels more important? And he talks a lot about, sort of, what is the lowest denominator behaviour that you're willing to accept in a company because then that becomes a standard that is acceptable to others. So, I'd love to hear your thoughts on sort of what Seth said and the impact that a poorly defined culture ends up having on creating environments where unnecessary conflict can thrive.

Amy Gallo: mean, I think it goes back to, what we were just talking about in terms of the bias toward action or the bias toward thinking action is more risky, which is that, if you do not have a clearly defined culture, here's how we do things around here. here are the trade offs we're willing to make in order to, live up to that culture, live up to what we say our values are, or our mission is, is that you. Yeah. end up, the default is that there's no conflict. The default becomes this artificial harmony. We just agree, we get along, because of those exact reasons that we're hardwired for likability. We like to work in positive, you know, friendly workplaces. And if we default to that, we're missing out on so much, right, when we work in places where there's no disagreement, there are ideas, opinions, insights, perspectives, feedback, that don't get voiced, and I think this is one of the things I, and I love what you're doing. And I think that's what Seth said, because I think this is one of the, sort of, lowest hanging fruits for a leader, and one of the most important things, is to set norms around conflict. How do we disagree? When is it okay to say, I don't see it the same way? When do we disagree but then decide we have to commit and move forward? Right? To really clearly define that. And I find in my work with teams and with organizations, you have to say it over and over and over. Because again, you're battling those natural human instincts to not do that, to keep things harmonious, to not rock the boat. So you have to do it to the point where really, your employees should be rolling their eyes, like, Okay, yes, I get it, we disagree, yep, it's okay. Because that gives them that permission. And I think the other thing, and Seth didn't say this explicitly in that, in those quotes, but I've heard Seth talk about it, and I've heard you talk about it as well, is that storytelling is such a key way to define and convey culture. And so you should be telling stories about conflicts. You should be telling stories about conflict. the tough feedback you got, not when you were 20, but you should be telling stories about the feedback you got last week that was really hard to hear, and what did you do with it. I love hearing a leader at an all staff meeting, this big pharmaceutical company, talk about how he had gotten feedback last week, that he's still not sure he's going to do anything with He's not sure yet. Right? And it's just this idea that I'm hearing it, I'm processing it. It may be true, it may be not, it may be valuable, but it's just normalizing the fact that feedback is part of that. culture. So telling stories about some time someone disagreed with you, and it was really hard, but you heard them, and you decided to do something even slightly different as a result can really define that culture.

Damon Klotz: One of my favorite stories about communication and culture and why it's so important was, one of the first customers that Culture Amp had was Airbnb, and there was an article about Brian Chesky and the way that he was trying to create the culture there and the communication styles, and they actually brought in a political expert, someone who really focused on political commentary and how political leaders can get their messages across, and one of the things that he ended up saying to Brian was, You need to basically know what your core messages are and your core stories and tell them so often that you will end up feeling physically sick of saying them and when you feel physically sick someone will hear it for the first time.

Amy Gallo: That's right. That's right. I often think, and I hate to compare managing to parenting, because people aren't children, or adults aren't children, but I do think, I remember my, the head of my daughter's preschool telling me, kids will understand something when you tell them the 50th time. And I do think that's just human nature, because we hear, we're like, oh yeah, and we forget it, and then we get told again, and you know, and it doesn't seem like it. Sit with you until you've actually heard it and there's I hear people Being in this work, you know, you hear people tell the same stories over and over and it's funny You're like, oh here comes this story and then you're like, oh, I forgot. That's how it ended Oh, that was the lesson right you and I think that as leaders we think well, I already told that story but it doesn't sit with people and it doesn't land until, like you said, you have to feel physically sick saying it.

Damon Klotz: I do get to spend a lot of time at sort of virtual events and physical events and sort of, there's been one line that was dropped at a conference earlier this year that seemed to have resonated more than any I've seen for a long time, which was around, unclear expectations are future resentments waiting to happen. And I feel like the workplace is full of unclear expectations. And that's where a lot of this sort of, that grey area of conflict can kind of sit, where it's like, you're sitting there in a meeting and you're like, that person knows that they need to do this or say this. And you're sitting there waiting for them to do it and they never do it. But the story that they're telling themselves is that they have no idea that that's their role to play in this meeting. They don't know that you're expecting that. And you're sitting there festering this entire story. So, um, yeah, do you have any reflections on the role of expectations?

Amy Gallo: I think most, conflicts at work, I mean, there's lots of research around what causes conflicts or disagreements, but most conflicts at work are about misunderstandings. And that's exactly what you're talking about, right? These unclear expectations. And so, you know, Absolutely, I think we're, it's, that is what leads to resentment, it's what leads to conflict, it's what leads to, often even toxic cultures, is that people assume the other person, or the other people know what they need, to do. And they can't imagine that they don't get it. And so when they don't do it, or when they do something else, it becomes this complete misalignment, where they're talking past each other, I mean, think back to those conversations I love where people are like, Oh, they're not, they're not on the same page, but these ones can have really dire consequences for a team, for an organization, for individuals.

Damon Klotz: I think at any major conference these days, you can't not talk about AI, but in the workplace space, the thing that you have to mention at least once is remote or distributed work. So if you thought you were going to survive an entire podcast episode without us talking about it, and again, this could be its own episode, but the role of conflict in remote work. Do you think it's changing how we interact with difficult colleagues? So like even something like if you're physically in a meeting room and there's someone that you feel like is difficult or that you don't have a strong relationship with, if you have to physically look them in the face, it's like a little bit different from when you're on a Zoom call where no one knows where your eye contact is. You might have your camera off. There's none of those sort of like subtle cues. So, challenges, advantages about conflict with virtual work? Is it easier, harder? What's going

Amy Gallo: All All of the above. so there was actually research done, before the pandemic. So keep in mind pandemic was a unique situation, but about non co located teams is the academic term, right? Dispersed teams, remote teams. And they showed they actually had less conflict because they were really focused on the tasks they needed to get done. So there wasn't, like, you couldn't, you can't see your, colleague roll their eyes if their camera's off, which would create a lot of conflict, so there's, and the conflicts tended to be more task conflict focused on what we're actually trying to achieve. so in some ways, I think the remote work smooths the, work. However, it's ripe for those misalignment miscommunication. You can use um, all of the emojis in the world in your Slack message, or your email, and it is not going to convey the same human emotion that I would convey with my tone of voice with my eyes. And I actually think, I, do think having cameras on can help because we see more, it's more context, and it reminds us that the other person's human, which is a key part of the, the sort of text based communication that we do with most people, is that it's very disconnected from our humanity, it doesn't encourage us to be empathetic, we can hide behind those screens. But, the funny thing about when people say I have a tough conversation I need to have with a remote colleague I say pick up the phone, don't get on a Zoom call. Because a Zoom call for a tough conversation is actually quite confrontational. because You have to look in their eyes in a way you never would in a natural, in person conversation. And so then it feels so intense, and either it gets really, really really amped up, or people try to extinguish the conflict so quickly that they don't actually discuss anything. And so when I have a difficult conversation, I always say pick up the phone, hear the tone of voice. Take a walk. There's great research that shows that conflict situations actually benefit from motion. because it's something about moving forward you become more focused on the future, rather than you know, hashing out the past, and so, I even say, especially if you're co located, say, let's, let's go for a walk together, but even not, you know, I, sometimes when I have a difficult conversation, I say, I'm going to, I'm going to take this as a, call to And I'm going to go out for a walk, feel free to do the same, just because it puts people in a better mood and a better state of, like, sort of problem solving.

Damon Klotz: the same, just because it puts people in a better mood and a better state of like, sort of, problem solving. In the zoo where people are watching me, which the first office I worked in in San Francisco was like this co working space where there was like all these startups there and we were in these little glass boxes and it just felt like you were working as an experiment in front of people and you start observing all these other people, you're like, that's not like a very natural way to have it, but also the environment has such a, like a huge role. So if you can, like going back to what can you control, if you can control the environment where you have important conversations. I think that is a great piece of advice.

Amy Gallo: You know, one other thing, that just occurred to me as we were, talking, Damon, is that I think people love to think that the environment is going to change the conflict in some way. And there is research that shows that it does, and of course it does to some degree. But if you work with a jerk. They're going to be a, jerk on email, on Slack, and in person. And so I think it's really trying to address that. That's the underlying behavior, not the medium through which you can communicate. And of course the communication medium can exacerbate or help it, but if I think about the archetypes from my book, people don't adapt that archetype just because they're now on Slack. be

Damon Klotz: a jerk can be a walking talking jerk. Or a sitting jerk. Exactly.

Amy Gallo: Exactly. Or a little box on the screen, jerk. Right. Or a typing, you know. three dots jerk, yeah.

It's

Damon Klotz: and, like, you know, Zoom calls, but even, like, if you're in a negative cycle or, like, a negative story about another colleague and you see them, like, thumbs up one of your things and you're, like, oh, of course you thumbed up my comment, because you think that that's the smartest thing I'm going to say today, and then they're just, like, oh, good idea, and you're, like, of course you think it's a good idea, so even, even emojis aren't universal.

Amy Gallo: Exactly. Well, and it's like, I think sometimes I'm like, oh, that was a sarcastic thumbs up. You know, it's like, what in the world? And I mean, it's just, it's funny how we, These things feel, so true to us. There's actually this social psychology concept, called fundamental attribution error, which is that, you know, if I'm late to a meeting, I think I'm late because there was traffic or my last meeting ran over or, and if you see me show up late to the meeting, especially if you have a little beef with me, you're like, Oh, she's so disorganized. She's so disrespectful, people's actions we assign to their personality, whereas we assign our own actions to the context. that's one of the critical things to remember when you're dealing with someone you find difficult, is you have to watch for the way that you're actually attributing that information. Actions to their, you know, being a jerk as opposed to just being a human that probably sat in traffic today.

Damon Klotz: We were discussing whether to bring this in, I'm going to bring this in because I think it's a funny moment, but like, this whole idea around the stories we sort of tell ourself, we were going to meet at the green room at 9. 30, and then Amy sends me a text saying, I'm going to be like, you know, sort of 10 minutes late, and, you know, we have a great working relationship, everything's fine, so I'm like, oh, that's fine, like, she'll get here when she gets here. But if I was in a negative sort of spiral, I'd be like, well, Amy doesn't respect my time, this is not as important to her as it is to me, and then she turns up and then someone from the South by Southwest team comes over, it's like, uh, Amy's just in the side room right now, she, uh, tipped her entire water bottle into her handbag.

Amy Gallo: I was literally walking through the convention center here with a bag full of water just dripping trying to get to the green room so I could empty it and it's funny you say that because I did have that moment where I'm texting you I'm like I hope he doesn't think I'm like a diva who shows up late to everything but I couldn't even text. I had, it was a very short text cause I was trying not to spill the entire water on the floor. Anyway. Yes.

Damon Klotz: So if anyone was walking around seeing, um, a handbag that was leaking, it was not one of those weird activations for a new movie here about why water is running out on planet Earth. Uh, it was just Amy who, um, is human. Uh, I want to talk about two P words. Personally and personality. So, during your keynote yesterday here at South by Southwest Sydney, you probably saw me in the front row, furiously taking notes, but also like looking at every question that was coming in from the audience to see, was there any sort of thematic things? And, um, I didn't need to use Culture Amp's like AI comment summary feature that can analyze 10, 000 comments at once to see the key themes. They were, pretty obvious to me. it was really around, um,

Amy Gallo: really around,

Damon Klotz: Personality, so like the personality of yourself and others, and taking things personally. Can you share more, and you actually just mentioned this earlier about cognitive attribution bias as well and fundamental attribution error. So can you share more about why critical feedback can sometimes feel personal and how fundamental attribution error influences how we perceive others because I just feel like this is one of those huge low hanging fruits that really is happening at every workplace.

Amy Gallo: So I always turn to the work of, Sheila Heen, she wrote a wonderful Harvard Business Review article called Finding the Coaching in Criticism. her whole area of study is, feedback, and she talks about there being three feedback triggers when we receive feedback. Um, negative triggers, that is. So one is the relationship, like, why don't you care about me? Why do you hate me? One is identity, which is, well, I thought I was a good coder and now you're telling me I'm a bad coder. I thought I was a good manager and now you're telling me I'm a bad manager. and the last one is truth, which is like, that's just simply untrue. Right. And it's a natural human instinct. Like, think about when someone gives you feedback. Like when Rosario gave me feedback, I might've said, tell me more, but I was sitting there thinking, I can't believe you just said that. I can't believe that's not true. Right. I went through those three triggers really fast and rapid really quickly. through them, they're, they're not, right. So I think it's just human nature to take things personally. Like what does this mean about who I am? what does this mean about our relationship? And sometimes it is about those things, but there's probably something else going on too. And it's about trying to calm that ego. In fact, I probably could have just answered your question by saying ego, because that's really what it is. Because We have egos, for a reason. but they, interfere with our ability to hear something that's difficult because we want to defend our ego and say, no, like, this isn't about me. No, I'm not. that way. And so it takes a lot of emotional self regulation to sort of calm that and say, okay, wait, this is about me. Right? taking it personally. Like, go ahead and take it personally, because it is about you, but try to calm your ego and hear in it what might be useful. That's not to say it's all useful or truthful, or that the person's not necessarily trying to be a jerk. They may be, but there might be some truth in it, and that might be helpful to you. And that, that's what you want. to, want to get to.

Damon Klotz: One of the mantras that I sort of try to remind myself of when I get feedback like that, and if I have like a more of an emotional response where I think I'm taking it personally, is I ask myself, why do I care so much about this right now? You know, is it about the specific feedback? Is it about something about whether I've, you know, got the ability to do that task well? Or is there something underneath? And I think that's something that you mentioned, you know, quite a lot about. What is sort of the, the problem behind the problem, the story behind the story? And are we just talking surface level about the meeting? Or is there like a three year underlying problem between two people that has not been surfaced?

Amy Gallo: Yeah, And

I think there's also this idea, is that you really, we really think things need to be resolved. Like, we often think, oh, well, this person, we haven't gotten along for three years, or we've had this clash, or we have misaligned a sentence, and it's can't, we can't move forward until it's resolved. Do you know how many unresolved conflicts we deal with all day long? Like, think about your partner, your. Parents, your, like, your friends, like, there's always stuff between us. And to think that it has to be resolved in order for us to work together or have a good relationship together is just not true. Oftentimes, I've encouraged people, you're not going to get through the conflict, you're going to be in the conflict. And being in the conflict is okay. okay, because it's a place of learning, it's a place of growth, it doesn't feel good, I'll give you that. and you'll get through it, but it'll have always been there. And so I think there, we're we're a little too focused on the resolution, and trying to make it better, trying to make it perfect. And what we actually mean in that moment is make it better for me. right? I want to feel comfortable. I want you to behave the way I want you to behave. I want to get the answer from our boss that I want, to get, whatever it is. But, sometimes you just have to live in that, that sort of nether region that's, not comfortable.

Damon Klotz: Before we did promise at the start of this episode, we are going to do a bit of a deep dive on succession and I will, uh, you know, we will get to that. I want to make sure there's time. one question that I've sort of seen come up a lot and I think, you know, you cover it really well is around strategies for sort of navigating challenging dynamics where there could be things like a power imbalance or there could be, one of the top topics we've spoken a lot about is, you know, how to talk about sometimes difficult topics with people and, you know, not wanting to make it sort of, you know, like a tense conversation, like, especially like during times of right now in the US, politics, how to talk about some of these things. So like, for people who are like, holding back from important conversations because of power, because it might be a difficult topic, because they don't know how to give, you know, feedback to someone who's not from the same gender as them. Is there any advice you give to people to like, make the leap to still have those important conversations even when they feel like there's something holding them back to?

The

Amy Gallo: like, make the leap to still have those important conversations even when they holding them back to it? Despite what we love to portray in the media around cancel culture, the chances of you actually really just permanently damaging a relationship but when you said one thing in a good natured, well intended way are very unlikely. So, we have to take these small interpersonal risks if we want to have the gain of a close relationship. The thing I use when I'm like, ooh, I'm not sure what to say, this might be sensitive, I don't know if I understand this person fully, is I'll even say that. is saying, you know, I'm not sure about what I'm about to say, so please give me feedback if This isn't the right question, if this isn't the right statement, but what I'm thinking. Right? It's just set it up as a conversation. and really, I think the other thing you really need to watch out for is virtue signaling? Is like, trying to, to talk about a sensitive topic by showing you're really sensitive, then becomes about your ego, and about you proving, we're back to me and Rosario, and just me trying to prove I'm a certain kind of person. And instead, really replace that with curiosity. What don't I know? Right? what, what information would be helpful for me in this moment? what's a potential solution to this problem that I'm working on with this person? Taking those small interpersonal risks, I think, really pays off in terms of connecting you with the other person, but then also learning. And the other thing, you know, hot take, you're going to mess up. Like, we mess up all the time. And it's okay. And ye and yes, you might damage a relationship. Yes, you might harm your reputation in some way. But the other option is to do nothing and stand still and say nothing. Like that's not a very fulfilling life, and that's not gonna get you very far in in your work. in your work.

Damon Klotz: So it is that time where we are going to do a bit of a deep dive on succession because I wanted to talk about the archetypes from your book and I felt like rather than just say them out loud and we can't solve all of the problems of the people listening and their cultures but we can use a made up culture to kind of associate some of these things and I think it was one of the things that we sort of first bonded over when I was sort of talking about, the show and you said that, that you actually wrote a forward to a HPR book and this is a real book, this is the real title. you can't make a Tomlet without breaking some Greggs, toxic management lessons from Succession and what to do instead. And I was like, okay, that is incredible. And I was like, I love that so much because I somehow managed to convince, British playwright, Lucy Preble, who was a writer and producer on the show Succession, and the creator of the play Enron. to actually come speak at a Culture First event and speak on the podcast. And I was so excited about that conversation with Lucy that I had to break it into two separate parts. it was two episodes. The first episode was about, sort of her work in the writer's room. And basically, the TLDR on that one is that the best workplace culture, like the best writer's room that she ever had, created one of the worst workplace cultures ever seen on, on TV. And then we did a whole second episode which was just dedicated to, like, me asking questions about succession. So, let's kick out on this. These are your eight archetypes that represent the common types of difficult people we come across. So we have the insecure manager. The pessimist, and if you want to raise your hand for which ones you are, no I'm just kidding. Um, the insecure manager, the pessimist, the victim, the passive aggressive peer, the know it all, the tormentor, the biased coworker, and the political operator. Uh, I'm sure we have all worked with these people and I'm sure we are these people as well at different times. So, the succession characters I think we should use as a reference point. Kendall Roy, Shiv Roy, Roman Roy, Tom, Greg, Jerry and Logan.

Amy Gallo: Oh gosh,

Damon Klotz: what? Let's dive

Amy Gallo: dive in. Well Logan's easy. Right? Logan, is the tormentor right off the bat. I mean he just, is incredibly easy. awful to almost everyone he works with and is really just doesn't believe anyone's worthwhile. And the interesting thing about the tormentor is it's someone you might expect to be a mentor, like they're accomplished, they have a lot of lessons learned, and he is, he has no interest in mentoring his children, he just wants to torture them. So I think that's the, easiest one.

Damon Klotz: Kendall, Oh God, Kendall, poor Kendall. I mean, Kendall, Kendall, I think. I'm curious what you think, but I would put Kendall probably most in the political operator, maybe also in the insecure manager. I mean, Kendall is just a mess. and, and Yeah, I don't know. did you have them in a different category? I had him in the know it all

Amy Gallo: Oh, yeah.

Damon Klotz: because I feel like he doesn't hear anything besides his own voice. And like the way, like the confidence he shows when he like gets up and like even, you know, does the L to the OG

Amy Gallo: No one's like

Damon Klotz: like no one's like people, even if they tried to give him feedback, he's like, cool, I'm going to do it anyway.

Amy Gallo: But he's so deeply insecure, right? Like he's just like, it is, it comes from a place of insecurity. And I think he feels like he knows nothing. And so he has to act like he knows it all, which truthfully is oftentimes what's behind the know it all behavior.

Damon Klotz: When I interviewed Lucy, and I spoke about, she did a lot of character work on Shiv, but every writer in the writer's room had to write for every character. They weren't assigned one character, so everyone had to be able to write across the entire scene. She said one of the most important things with Shiv's character was that she had to be as fundamentally flawed as every other sibling, because they didn't want to sort of have a, you know, the female archetype of, but she's not flawed, but the brothers are. She had to have those same sort of flawed tendencies, so Where do you, obviously, like, she was a political strategist, so that was her actual job, but where do you think she

Amy Gallo: her actual job, but where do you think she in the interest furthering her career or getting what she wanted, but I think she was a little bit like Teflon, which is what it often feels like working with someone who's a passive aggressive. You can't actually land a comment or an idea or like, they're just like, it's like shadowboxing.

Damon Klotz: I

Amy Gallo: it'd be interesting to ask Lucy about Jerry, because I think Jerry in some ways was one of the least flawed of the characters. Like, she's someone I'd actually get a drink with. The rest of them I probably would turn the other way if I ran into them on, on the street. so I'm not sure I'd put her in any category. Did you have a thought on where she would go? I

Damon Klotz: like she probably spent all of her energy navigating the others.

Amy Gallo: Exactly. Yeah,

Damon Klotz: She was sort of the one person who was like, especially because of the, like, the family dynamic, like, if you've worked in cultures where you're like, there's that, clique thing, her entire job was like, saving energy to navigate how to just survive.

Amy Gallo: Her entire job was like saving energy to navigate how to just decide. Uh, yeah,

Damon Klotz: yeah, we probably should have done this whole section, like, spoiler alerts if you

Amy Gallo: yeah, totally.

Damon Klotz: if you haven't seen the

Amy Gallo: And if you haven't seen it, you should watch it. It's so good.

Damon Klotz: Um, everyone's favourite, sad, sad little boy, Roman.

Amy Gallo: ro, I mean, Roman. So I, I make clear in the introduction to the book that I'm not talking about pathological personnel like that, these are not psychological diagnoses, I think Roman deserves a psychological diagnosis and probably wouldn't fit into them because they're actually too soft for him. I think he, he's got some deep, deep stuff going on. Certainly the biased coworker, I mean, they all exhibit. You know, bias, committed microaggressions, uh, left and right, he's probably the one who does it most blatantly.

Damon Klotz: And then, everyone's favourite little mentor mentee relationship, Tom and Greg. And that was, uh, Whole section that I got to speak to Lucy about was just the dynamic of how they wanted to show mentoring. Because it was like, everything else was really about who can make it to the top. Where Tom and Greg was one of the true mentoring relationships that we actually saw across the show. About someone taking someone underneath their wing, also, also to kind of torture them. It was a bit of a tormentor. it's I think the only time they had really like, they really hashed it out. I was like, Tom responded by throwing water bottles think the at Greg. So what do you see about their dynamic?

Amy Gallo: like, they're out, and I was like, Tom responded by throwing water bottles at Greg. So, what do you see about their dynamic? It is about mentorship, but it is also this amazing romance between two characters. and I think I would put them in the tormentor, tormentee, category. But I also think that, what Tom points to in his mentoring of, Greg is that something I talk about in the political operator, Chapter, which is that sometimes you despise the political operator, you can't believe that they're, furthering their own career at the expense of others. One of the tactics that sometimes works is to watch what they're doing and see if there's something about it, not the negative aspect, but something about the way they're connecting or networking or, you know, talking about their own successes that you might emulate. and I think that that was really what Tom was trying to, show Greg of like, this is a highly, highly political organization, and you gotta play the game and I won't spoil just in case, but it comes quite true.

Damon Klotz: Yeah. So to wrap, in a wild world where Wayside Royco is a real company still operating and there is a, let's say there's a brand new CEO who has made it to the top of succession at the helm and they've listened to this great podcast about workplace culture, so they reach out to the people being interviewed and say, excuse me Amy Gallo, what should CEO to turn this place around? what sort of final advice do you have for them to try and make that a functioning organization?

Amy Gallo: hire CultureAmp, of course, yeah. but also I think that really, there has to sort of, be, this is too lofty of a term, but some restorative justice in that you have to admit how bad it was. There's nothing worse than when you're trying to turn around a toxic culture and just sort of like, now we have, you know, drinks in the lounge. and now, you know, like, you're not going to put like a sugar coating over how awful and evil this place was forever. You really have to talk about what was deeply wrong with it and how it's going to be different. and, this is, I have this advice for people who've also done great harm to coworkers, or went and who've actually come around and say, I want to be different. It's like you can't just start being different. You have to talk about what went wrong and why. you truly believe It was wrong before you can actually commit to doing something, something differently.

Damon Klotz: We only get one life and everything that we want is on the other side of a difficult conversation and it might feel easier in the moment to avoid the difficult conversation, but you know, we all deserve to work at great places and be, you know, working with great leaders and to be one ourselves. So I hope that this episode has encouraged you to really understand your relationship with conflict, with really like, conflict. You know, your relationship and your colleagues and encourages you to go do something about it. Go have that important conversation to embrace healthy conflict and think about the norms around your culture and other ways that they're not serving you. And if not, what can you do about them? So this has been a live taping of the Culture First podcast at South by Southwest Sydney. Amy Gallo. Thank you so much for joining me.

Amy Gallo: Thank you, Damon. Thank you.