Isabel Berwick on professional growth in uncertain times

Isabel Berwick: I think this has been such an interesting thing since the pandemic. I mean, Can we be comfortable with uncertainty? I think it's being comfortable with being uncomfortable and that can be really difficult because actually we seek certainty in our jobs.

As AI takes over a lot more of our jobs, what we're bringing as individuals becomes actually amplified. What is the value that I am adding that the machine isn't?

Employers, I think, have got much better about learning and development and training partly because they've had to be because people demand it now. somebody coming into the workforce now expects career development. They expect upskilling. They expect promotion.

Damon Klotz: Hello and welcome back to another episode of the Culture First podcast. I'm your host, Damon Klotz, and I've got some data that may potentially surprise you. In July of this year, CultureAnt released their latest benchmark data set, and our data scientists analyzed 97 million questions from over 5, 000 organizations. And once again, there was a standout driver of employee engagement. Can you guess what it is? Well, if you're listening to this podcast on Spotify, you can actually leave comments now and let me know your answer. And if you're watching this on YouTube, you can also leave a comment and let me know your answer there. So I think I've given you enough time to maybe put in a comment saying, Damon, I believe the top driver of engagement is dot, dot, dot. And I know you're going to be honest with me and you haven't just waited for me to reveal what it is. But if you are waiting for me to reveal what it is and you guess that the number one driver of engagement is whether your company is a great company to make a contribution to your development, then you'd be right. Nearly every year when we've looked at the culture and benchmarks, the top driver of engagement globally is to do with development. But what if you're listening to this right now and you're saying, well, I work somewhere that just doesn't really feel like it's a great place for me to develop. And you're wondering, what can you do to gain new skills? Because. Maybe you want to future proof your career. Well, my guest today is exactly who you need to hear from. I want to introduce you to Isabel Berrick. She's a journalist and editor from the Financial Times, and she's also the host of their Working It podcast, which technically makes her both a colleague and kind of a competitor in the world of workplace storytelling, but I always think it's better when people get together and lift each other up as opposed to competing because The world of work needs as much inspiration as it possibly can get. So Isabel recently wrote a book called The Future Proof Career, which you've probably heard me hint about now. And this episode is going to have us rethinking our approach to careers, to success, and to growth. So let's head on over to my conversation with Isabel. Today on the Culture First podcast, I'm speaking with Isabel Berwick. Isabel, thank you so much for joining me today.

Isabel Berwick: Thanks for having me, Damon.

Damon Klotz: So, I have an interesting place that I wanted to start this conversation with you. We were first connected when I was featured in your Financial Times newsletter, Working It. Now, we're here. In this newsletter, you did have a section on tips for a great panel moderator, and I actually shared with you how I prep for a podcast interview. So I thought it might be very meta considering you already know what I wrote that we actually start with that quote. How does that sound?

Isabel Berwick: Sure. Give it a go.

Damon Klotz: So in your newsletter, what I said was that whenever I interview someone for this show, or whenever I'm doing a prep call, you know, before I'm moderating like a panel or something, I always want to ask someone what needs to be true for this to be an amazing experience for you. Because I now know what success looks like. I know what environment needs to be great. and also, you know, gives them a little bit of ownership over, well, I want that to be true because I've already said it out loud. So that was my little tip, which ended up in your newsletter. So I thought maybe I just ask you that question up front and we do it live as opposed to in a prep call. So what does success look like for you to be on the Culture First podcast today?

Isabel Berwick: Ooh, that's a great question. What does success look like to me? I think a conversation that gives the listeners something that they can take away and apply in their working lives. listen to a lot of podcasts and I read a lot of workplace content and a lot of it is very theoretical. I like practical, Applicable tips, and even if you can't apply them, it's something to aim for. So applicable and aspirational, I guess, is what success looks like.

Damon Klotz: All right, well, we will do our best to make sure that, that is, what is true for the audience by the end of this, and I think that's pretty true for how we think about the show here at Culture First. the way I kind of think about it, the show that maybe like the head of HR, the chief people officer, a C suite member listens to, but then they go, I want to send this to all the managers because they're the ones who are trying to make work better. They're the ones who are creating these teams and these cultures and running one on one. So hopefully it's full of actionable tips around people's careers. But I thought I might start with a little bit of a background for those who might, not know you as well. So you're a highly respected figure in the world of journalism and media, currently serving as the Working Careers Editor at the Financial Times. You have over two decades of experience at the FT and a host of the award winning Working at Podcasts, which I guess makes you both a peer and a competitor, because we're both trying to get people to listen to work podcasts. So this is a very meta experience. and you're also a bestselling author. So your recent book, The Future Proofed Career has quickly become a bestseller in the careers category, which I think is a really important conversation to be having right now as many people are really wrestling with work and the connection to it and what's going on. So I'm excited to get started and highlight more of the work that you've been doing. Shall we dive in?

Isabel Berwick: Please do, Damon.

Damon Klotz: So the question I ask, all of my podcast guests is how do you describe what you do for work to a curious 10 year old? So if a curious 10 year old did come up to you on the streets of London today, how do you answer?

Isabel Berwick: I tell other people how they can make work better, and I also write about the same thing.

Yeah, is that succinct enough?

Damon Klotz: I think so because like certain people have certainly told long stories and I have to interrupt them and go, Oh, that 10 year old's gone. Like they have, they have walked off, So I think you have to be succinct. You have to be straight to the point. The other question that I thought might be a nice place to start, and this is actually a bit of a new tradition that I'm going to be starting in this new set of episodes that we're recording, is, I actually, this morning, this is my little, like, humble brag, had a conversation with Esther Perel. Esther is a advisor to CultureAmp, so we, we do do a lot of work with her, and over the years of me getting to know her, We're always geeking out on questions, she does have a card game. So do you want to randomly select one based on left, middle, right? Do you want me to say all three? How do you want to play?

Isabel Berwick: I'm a massive Esther Perel fan, so this is an exciting moment. yeah, I'm left handed, so let's have the left one.

Damon Klotz: Okay, so this one is A time I changed my mind.

Isabel Berwick: Oh, interesting. So, when I was writing my book, I talked to some psychotherapists and people who've been trained in psychoanalytic therapy, and they taught me To think about interactions and arguments I'd had at work over the years and difficult relationships with bosses, particularly, they taught me that I had to take myself out of it and look on it as a, you know, that third position where you look on it as an outsider. I'd spent my whole working career getting quite het up and wondering, what it was that they were, you know, obsessing about the other person and what they were bringing. And I learned to flip that and think, what is it that I'm bringing? And that came, I'm afraid distressingly late in my career, but I've got there now.

Damon Klotz: Yeah. that question of like, what role am I playing in this being true right now, as opposed to something happening to you? yeah, it's the power of a pair of great questions. And yeah, Esther is someone who we believe is helping create a better world of work, which is our mission here at CultureAmp. So, working with her is really exciting. So I'm glad you're a fan. she's been on the show a couple of times before,

Isabel Berwick: I know. I listen to everything she does.

Damon Klotz: Very cool. Well, we do have another episode coming out with her soon as well. So that's a plug for if people haven't subscribed already, that is my shameless podcast host plug. I wanted to start at maybe more of a macro level with you, which is around, you know, you and I have conversations with people all the time about the world of work, what's happening. And then you've gone on to write a book called The Future Proof Career. Was there a particular conversation or was there an article or a newsletter? Was it something that you had sort of seen that was like, okay, this is why I need to write this book. Or was there a consistent theme that was coming up in your work that led you to actually want to sit down and write this book?

Isabel Berwick: So, I mean, the rather basic truth is that I wrote the book because I was asked to do so, a publisher approached me. But when it came to the content of the book, I did want to write something that was really straightforward. And actually applicable to people who are leading balanced, ordinary lives. You know, you might not want to be the CEO, but you want to have a good career. I think I read so, and you probably do too. I read so many books about management and leadership, and a lot of them are quite in the weeds and I just wanted to, it's almost like the things I wish I'd known before now. Taking in, you know, I'm so lucky to be able to talk to so many amazing people who know a lot more than I do. So essentially distilling that. In a form that is accessible, easy to use, and, you know, useful for people who maybe aren't the CEO, but just want to have a good career, get on with their colleagues, and progress.

Damon Klotz: Yes. it's a much more human approach to like work as opposed to like a lot of career books are like how to crush your way all the way to the top and leave a wake of destruction. And I, you know, like, okay, not everyone wants to be that kind of aggressive with it. And obviously sometimes those books sell more because they sound more interesting and, you know, thought provoking. But for the rest of us, sometimes it's just like, how do I have a healthy relationship with myself and my work? And I did see that you sort of said that, you know, this is a book for mortals. And when I do hear the term, mortals. I do think about Oliver Berkman because I've had Oliver on the show before and his book sort of time management for mortals, I think probably is in a similar vein, which is like, we have a realistic conversation about our expectations in life. So, how have you found that the book has been received by people? You know, that this book is different from maybe what a traditional careers book might be?

Isabel Berwick: Yeah, it's been really lovely actually. I've had some amazing conversations with on LinkedIn, people email me. I do a lot of events now and people come up to me at events and say, I had one person come up to me and say, she'd given the book to three of her friends and two of them had left their jobs and got better jobs. they hadn't realized how unhappy they were in their jobs until they'd read the chapter of my book where I suggest you do an audit of your workplace. Thanks. just a quick one. Yeah, I think it just allows people to take a step back from their work and think, actually, is this okay? Because it's hard. We know when we're immersed in a work culture. That's the work culture. , you know, and often for younger people particularly, there's nothing to compare that with.so that's been great. there, you know, I think there's another book in me, but I haven't, I'm just sort of hesitating before starting because it's a big undertaking.

Damon Klotz: It is like, I'm deeply fascinated by like how people end up in their careers. Like, I think when I've sort of think about my relationship with workplace topics is I picked HR, not because I was like, Oh, I think that's going to be a great career. I just found it really fascinating about this whole concept of like, why do you do what you do and how do you make that experience better? And I've already had like seven careers by the age of 35. you know, many different things. Cause I just find myself sort of curious about this, but I often do wonder that maybe sometimes. People made a career decision, you know, like 17, 18, 25 years ago, and like picked an industry or picked a, like a degree and just worked in it for forever. So have you had any people sort of come up to you and be like, this is the first time I've checked in on myself and been like, am I even doing what I want to be doing right now?

Isabel Berwick: Not quite that existential, but I think about that myself, but I, I think what I increasingly feel, and you've just touched on this, is that, We can probably divide people into curious people and not curious people. And the curious people doesn't, you don't necessarily need to change career. I mean, I've been a journalist for 30 years, but I think curiosity is baked into journalism. That's what we do. We're nosy. And, we're getting people to tell their stories sometimes when they don't want to tell them. I mean, that's at the heart of journalism. But I think for a lot of people, if they're in one career, that can provide a structure that's very comforting. And if you're not someone that seeks outside that, that's fine too. But I think if you do have this kind of curiosity, it's both good and bad, cause it can stop you from feeling comfortable in a job because you know, there's something gnawing at you. There's a kind of ambition about curiosity, you always want to be on to the next thing. So I'm not surprised that someone like you has had lots of careers, because you know, if you're interested in loads of different things, it's hard to stand still. And that's sort of what corporate life depends, you know, that's what it's built for, kind of measured progression. But I mean, my book is written really for people who work in corporate environments or organizations. There are some amazing books for entrepreneurs written by entrepreneurs, but I'm not one of them. So I suppose there is a limitation to my book and I accept that because that's the experience that I'm bringing. I've been at the FT for 20 years and before that I worked in other media organizations. So I'm an institutional person and that that's perhaps my shortcoming. Yes.

Damon Klotz: I think, you know, what's baked into this is it's a book for For the majority, it's for the people who, you know, who just have found themselves like, you know, I'm working and for parts of my life. And, you know, I don't want to turn this into a therapy session. I will save that for my actual therapist or for my conversations with Esther. you know, I've over indexed a lot of my career in terms of like, work is really the thing I'm passionate about. And it's like what I love. And I've had like two or three jobs at the same time and like, run a charity and worked a full time job and like done speaking. But for a lot of other people, it's like, I just want to work somewhere that is has a healthy culture where I feel respected, where I can do good work. And I don't necessarily want to rise to the top. But I do want to be able to have an understanding about my relationship with myself And my relationship to the work and why I wanted to have you on the show and why I think it's really important is because, people who listen to this might not be at a workplace where they have a career coach, or they've never had a mentor. And maybe this is one of the first kind of check in moments that they've kind of had around. How am I going? how do I, You know, position myself and protect myself and develop myself. And, yeah, I love that you split the book into like the, you know, sections for employees and for managers, because you might be listening and going, how do I help the people around me have better careers? Or it might be the moment to check in with yourself and say, how do I have a better career?

Isabel Berwick: Yeah. And a lot of us are both, you know, you can be a manager and then you behave in that particular way when you're in that role, but you're also a team member if you're a manager. So you can be both of those things at the same time, which I think is often a distinction that isn't really made. I mean, I think if I were to write the book again, I would probably make more about the distinction between management and leadership. You know, when I go back and read it, I think maybe I didn't do that enough. And I think that's a really important distinction that is often talked about in the kind of rarefied world of business schools and management and leadership, but it isn't something we see that often inside organizations.

Damon Klotz: One of my toxic traits is constantly plugging previous episodes because that's how my brain thinks. But when you said the difference between leadership and management, are you familiar with, Adam Bryant, who was at the New York Times for a long time?

Isabel Berwick: No, I'm not. Tell me.

Damon Klotz: So he wrote a column at the New York Times called Corner Office.

Isabel Berwick: Oh yeah,

Damon Klotz: Yeah, for a long time, I interviewed, you know, CEOs for like 15 plus years. And had him on the show last year, and he spoke a lot about the difference between leadership and management and that there's, you know, a role for both and that, You need great managers who are really great at tasks and really great at knowing what is the next job to be done and what does success look like. And then you also need strong leaders. You need people who can set a vision and a mission and be able to take people on a bigger journey than just the task themselves. And I think maybe we use those terms a lot and we don't always separate the two.

Isabel Berwick: exactly. I think maybe that's my next job, but you've, you've just very, very brilliantly distilled it in a nutshell.

Damon Klotz: Well, Adam, Isabel, this is my mental note. You two should talk. I'll connect you afterwards. Let's make it happen. you discussed the role of uncertainty in career development. And I feel like if we look at maybe one of the macro Google trend words of like, what has been used the most in the past four or five years, like uncertainty is just thrown around all the time. We've all been navigating it. How can individuals learn to become comfortable with uncertainty. And do you have any practical steps around how they can sort of navigate that in their professional lives?

Isabel Berwick: Yeah, I think this has been such an interesting thing since the pandemic. I mean, Can we be comfortable with uncertainty? I think it's being comfortable with being uncomfortable for me anyway, and every people I talk to, and that can be really difficult because actually we seek certainty in our jobs. I think that's why people do look to leaders for strong leadership. But I also look to them for honesty, and I think people do accept much more now that things are not always going to be the same. But I, we're fighting against human nature, really. we yearn for certainty. And I, I mean, this is something I've been thinking about a lot, because I've, you know, I'm getting divorced. I have a lot of uncertainty in my personal life after, you know, I've been married for nearly three decades. And I think you can bring some of the lessons I've learned from that into the workplace. And I think all of us have had uncertainty in our personal lives at some point, whether that's a relationship breakup or grief or, you know, not feeling secure in your friendship group. You know, these things that happen to us in real, if I say real life, work is real life, but we, you know, we can bring how we learnt to cope with those into work. And one of the biggest uncertainties at work, I think, is the, you know, the macroeconomic and political situation. And which we have no control over and neither do our leaders. And I think as we become accustomed to this very fast news cycle, perhaps we as human beings will become more accustomed to it. And part of that, I think, might be just switching off a little bit from, I'm going to say this as a journalist, but just protecting yourself a little bit. I consume way too much news and I doom scroll. So things that can protect us in our work are in fact not doom scrolling before bed. It goes across the whole of our lives, I think.

Damon Klotz: one of the, the things we saw a lot during the pandemic was this whole sort of increase in transparency, which was leaders sort of trying to like say everything and say, like, you know, open source everything. And I spoke with, Rachel Botsman, who's like, you know, one of the world's leading experts on trust. And she was like. her sort of advice was, you know, transparency shouldn't like be a value of the, of the company. It shouldn't be like one of the words that you put up there. It is a, like a tactic that you use from time to times, which is like, sometimes we do need to increase information. But I think to your point around, if you are just doom scrolling to a bunch of information that, You have literally no control over, you can't control anything about that. I think the same thing sort of navigating our careers in the workplace, if we are bombarding employees with a whole bunch of information that they can't do anything with doesn't actually change their role, but we think we just need to communicate it, it kind of does lead to this constant feeling of uncertainty and anxiety because it's like, okay, I'm trying to navigate myself. And there's all these other things that I can't control. So I think, yes, being comfortable being, uncomfortable is definitely one, but certainly there's some tips and tricks that leaders can do to remove some of the unnecessary information that could be leading to that feeling.

Isabel Berwick: And that's really interesting, that point about, you know, in the pandemic, leaders were really, you know, quote, vulnerable, and sort of talked a lot more personally about how they had shortcomings. I think what I struggle with, and I'm still thinking about this, and I'll be interested to hear your thoughts on this, is how far is that helpful for a workforce? Because actually people do need certainty to a certain extent from leaders. you know, we haven't fundamentally changed from the people who were living in small villages who looked up to the head person in the village. I mean, you know, our brains have moved on in some ways, but actually we want a bit of certainty. I think, obviously, honesty and some transparency. But I think I'm interested to think about where that's going in terms of what leadership means in an uncertain world. Because I think too much admission of vulnerability and failure can be destabilizing for people.

Damon Klotz: Yeah, like I think one of the most powerful,you know, three words that a leader has said over the last few years is like, I don't know, you know, I don't know how this is going to pan out here is everything we do know, you know, here is how much money we have, here's our runway, here's the products that we're selling right now, here's what's working well, here's what manufacturing plants are open, here's where we've got shortcomings. Trying to pretend you have all the information does not help employees, especially if they then take those little sort of like, sometimes leaders can breadcrumb information and they'll take something. They're like, no, no, that's the wrong thing. But like, that's the only thing the employee heard. And they start making all these decisions around that. So I think. Yeah, saying I don't know is, powerful, but also not pretending to have all the answers as well. I

Isabel Berwick: And saying what you do know, the known knowns, what you've just said, Damon, that's really important, I think.

Damon Klotz: think one of the other, and you know, we're certainly not having a whole pandemic focused kind of conversation, but certainly the world of work has changed dramatically over the last four or five years. And, when I think about navigating my career and sort of, you know, the benefits that I've really experienced has been true. Investing in relationships and investing in networks, you know, the, the very first HR job I got when I was 19 was I went to a networking event and I met someone and it was how I got that opportunity, which sort of changed my life. And then all of that is, you know, I've always tried to put myself close to the surface area of other interesting people. One of the things that I often think about is like, you know, I'm a, You know, millennial, I sort of, you know, graduated, I was already working in HR. I had a lot of in person experience. I put myself in different environments. I moved to the US when I was 25 with CultureAmp, went out there and put myself in the heart of it. When I think about one of my younger brothers, who's only just turned 21, he's not going to have that same sort of surface exposure to people. He is going to have to navigate his career. In a different way, what are you seeing when it comes to building relationships and networks and how to really think about future proofing your career, knowing that this next generation of people does not have that same physical face to face connection that a lot of us have had in our careers?

Isabel Berwick: I think that's a work in progress, isn't it? And I, in fact, I talked this week to a really interesting woman called Chloe Comby, who's an expert on Gen Z and also Generation Alpha that's coming through next, born from 2008 onwards. And she's spoken to, I think, 20, 000 young people, and she's done quite a lot of research. And she said something really interesting, which is that she encourages, You know, a lot of Gen Z have got used to being at home in the pandemic. They may have dogs, they may have lives, as we all do, but actually, because they haven't been in the office or the workplace before the pandemic, they don't understand perhaps the deeper, the unspoken importance of going in sometimes. Not all the time, sometimes. So she's quite clear, I think, when she talks to groups and to employers to encourage people to come in sometimes. But also to encourage people to collaborate when they're in, which I'm sure, you know, you know, and I know that you can't just come in and sit on a Zoom call. There has to be a reason, a why, rather than a where. So that's one thing that I think. Can really help with corporate culture. Just being very thoughtful about why people are coming in and getting them to collaborate. And the other thing that I got from Chloe, which is really interesting is the importance of mentoring. So you've got grad trainees or younger recruits coming in. You pair them with a mentor, but that mentor for a Gen Z, Chloe finds that a Gen X mentor millennial because there are cultural parallels between that. I mean, I'm Gen X. And I, there are cultural parallels between Gen X and Gen Z. So I started work, you know, at the very dawn of the tech revolution, the whole Douglas Coupland, Microsoft's slacker, Richard Linklater time. So we did not come into that hustle culture like millennials did. We came into a kind of slacker culture and we came in, you know, I can remember getting my first computer. We came in at the dawn of tech, which is a, there's a parallel now to the dawn of AI. So she finds that Gen X and Gen Z pair really well. In a kind of mentoring relationship. So I think these kind of one on one relationships could be the future for corporates where people are feeling a bit lost actually about connection. And that the flip side to that for people listening is that millennials pair really well with boomers. Who are both, from a much more, you know, culturally, they're much more striving generations. I mean, this is a massive generalization, but I find it really fascinating.

Damon Klotz: I love that. That's a really practical, like, you know, you can look at sort of the demographic makeups of your organization and go, people going straight to the person just above them who might be within that same age bracket or might be, you know, in a similar experience. while I do not want to stereotype all millennials, a lot of us millennials do have issues with boomers, especially in Australia for having all the houses that we can't afford. So we do have to get over that little issue about, you know, that's more of a. macro economic political thing, which we won't touch on on this podcast, but I do like that as a practical tip. You did touch on AI and I feel like any work conversation, you know, you can't not talk about AI. So as AI and automation continues to reshape the workplace, do you have advice for professionals who are in roles and thinking about future proofing their career and go, am I at risk of like obsolescence because of this? Like, you know, how do I navigate some of these things? And there's been some really fascinating studies about who are the types of generations who are actually embracing new technology? Who are the demographics who are embracing it? Who are the ones who are sort of scared around it? So yeah, we'd love to hear your take around future proofing your career when it comes to this, all this emerging technology.

Isabel Berwick: Yeah. I mean, I think it's too early to tell. I, everyone I've spoken to has said the next six months is going to be crucial for the rollout of generative AI in professional knowledge work. So I'm sort of reserving judgment actually, but I think it's not as simple as age based cohorts for that. I think it comes back to curiosity. So some people are more curious than others. And so I suppose it's, do you have your head in the sand or are you looking up and out? And I, I try to look up and out and I'm starting to use AI a bit more in a kind of organic way, you know, getting it to transcribe for me, things like that, just small steps. if I think back to how it was in the nineties, when the tech came into our work, you know, it came slowly, slowly, slowly, and then all at once. Then we couldn't remember a time when it hadn't been that. So I think AI may go this way. Are we gonna be obsolete? Some people probably will be. I'm a bit of a techno optimist. I don't know why. I don't have any basis for that. It's just that when I talk to people who are techno optimists, a little bit of it rubs off on me. And maybe you are the same when you host a podcast, you know, a lot of people come past you. And what sticks for me is the people that have really original. takes on it. And I do think that there is a potential for AI to free us up to be more human. I do believe that it may not happen, but I really hope that if AI is doing the admin and the grunt work and the entry level work, what are these companies going to be doing with their grad trainees? They're going to be teaching them how to work well with clients, to work well with teams, to be better humans, actually. So there is, there's the existential crisis part of AI, which is a lot of entry level work is being taken away. And then there's what comes next, because you've got to think of some way to develop your next generation of recruits, while also helping older people who are already in the workforce to work differently. So it's a double challenge. I mean, I really don't envy people who are perhaps in HR or in charge of rollout of AI, you know, transformation. Directors. This is a really difficult role at the moment, but an exciting one.

Damon Klotz: Yeah, there's the technical, like there's the actual tech role at all these things, but then there's also sort of both the governance as well as the thought leadership aspect. we do quite a bit of work with, and they do some really great research the US. And one of the pieces of work that we worked on with them was around sort of, you know, like perceptions around AI. And they spoke at an event that I was at in New York last year. And,Emily, from Charter, she sort of said that one of the places that employees are actually looking for guidance about how to use AI and inspiration is actually from their employers. Like they actually want to say like, Hey, recommend tools for me to use, like, tell me what's okay, because I think some of the fear associated with some of these things is you don't want to be known as like the employee. He's like using all these rogue tools. And it's like, why was there a huge, you know, outbreak of like, you know, why did our software all go down? It was like, Oh, because like, so and so in that department started using this AI tool that wasn't, you know, approved. And like, that's brought down the company. So. They, you know, employees are looking for some guidance around employees and saying, look, I'm not necessarily scared about this stuff, but give me some parameters. guidelines about how to work with this. And like, you know, those curious people, like we mentioned, will probably go upskill themselves.

Isabel Berwick: Yeah, there is some astonishing stuff about how many people are bringing their own AI to work, isn't there? I think the curious people have already gone out there. So I suppose, yes, the imperative is for leaders, actually, to get onto this. And I think that's quite scary. When I talk to coaches who work with leaders, there's a real fear out there of not understanding what's going on. Yeah. Not doing the right thing, which is totally understandable, but I think we're at the point where you have to do something. Otherwise, everyone's going to be bringing their own AI to work.

Damon Klotz: Yeah. Well I think, you know, when I entered the workplace, that was kind of one of the like big HR topics was the whole like, bring your own device to work. And it was like, excuse me, is that like a company issued Blackberry or is that your personal iPhone? You know, there was that whole fear around, sending emails on, networks that weren't company owned. But now you've gonna have people with, you know, chat GPT open on their personal phone and like telling it about like, how do I do my job better? 'cause they don't want the workplace to know that they're trying to work faster.

Isabel Berwick: But we're at that really early stage. I was thinking, the FT did a piece this week about how many people are using ChatGPT in their, Job applications. So, you know, it's about 50 percent and the ones who are paying for premium chat GPT are getting further. And so that AI is met with the AI on the recruiter side. we're in this sort of extraordinary stalemate situation where thousands of people are applying for jobs because it's easy, the filters are not sophisticated. Anyway, I posted this FT article on LinkedIn. It went because so many people are worrying about this, but it reminded me that it seems to me that we're at the top of this. cycle, you know, everything is a bit broken. And I, if I think about how smartphones have gone, like for example, my kids are Gen Z, they both had smartphones when they were probably 11. We didn't probably know the impact of those smartphones on our children and their mental health. And now parents are much more on it. Schools are much more on it. Society is much more on it. And I think we're coming to a point where smartphones abandon a lot of schools and it's becoming normal. And I think perhaps with AI, maybe it's a silly parallel, but we're at this kind of crazy free for all because we don't really understand it and we're excited. And I, it might take years. I mean, it's taken 10 years for the smartphone thing to calm down, but we are getting there, I think.

Damon Klotz: It is like a fascinating battle with like, you know, CultureAmp is a HR tech company. So like, you know, I go to some of these conferences and like, you know, the ones in Vegas and all the trade shows and like AI in applicant tracking systems was a big thing for a long time about how do you get through more candidates. Faster and how to use keywords. And, you know, like I know when people come to me for career advice, as I have a bachelor of business in HR, they're like, how do we apply? And they're like, how do I get past all these things? In some ways, it's kind of like there is this, power back to the people to kind of go, well, you can make these tools work harder for you. And if you know how to use them well, like you said, you can find yourself getting to the late stage in person interviews quicker than others. So it is this kind of like, we're trying to have a human experience yet the technology is the thing that we're still sort of wrestling with.

Isabel Berwick: Yeah, it's almost like LARPing recruitment at the moment. we need to bring it back to a kind of almost like a real, maybe a real life. I mean, I don't know what the answer is. You tell me what the answer is. We're fighting AI with AI

Damon Klotz: Yes. And at the heart of that is still a human and a human has a combination of both technical skills and soft skills. So I wanted to maybe sort of transition into that and how you think about, you know, like, if someone is listening to this and going, yeah, you know, I want to future proof my career. I want to not necessarily run a company, but I do want to be. Really good at what I do and get better at it. is there a magic number split between working on the technical side versus the soft skill side? Do you have any advice based on the conversations you've been having around where people should be focused?

Isabel Berwick: Yeah, I mean, every conversation I have focuses on the human side of things because ultimately we are not going to employ someone we don't want to work with. you know, that can be quite an expansive statement because we may want to work with them, not because we think they're going to be our friend, but because we think they're incredibly competent at what they do and will make our team work better. That's what I hope anyway. and I think it's worth investing in those kind of human skills and understanding more essentially about ourselves, but really more about other people. And then, and I suppose this is one of the big things that I've learned, you know, don't take people at face value. Why is that person being an asshole? It's probably because they've got something going on at home. They're bringing something to work from their childhood. Even it's not about you, I suppose. And we can learn to be much better colleagues by suppose, just pausing and taking a step back. So focusing on that, but do not neglect the other skills, obviously. But I sort of think that is something that we can be proactive about. Yes, but Employers, I think, have got much better about learning and development and training partly because they've had to be because people demand it now. You know, I was just grateful for any crumbs that were thrown my way, but somebody coming into the workforce now expects career development. They expect upskilling. They expect promotion. So we focus over here on our human team building, maybe management and leadership skills. And we perhaps can ask our employers to help us a bit more with the technical side of things. I don't know. That's my feeling at the moment.

Damon Klotz: Well, yeah, you just have to, you know, you head on over to cultureamp. com slash insights. You click on any benchmark from any industry from the last sort of four or five years, and you will just see top drivers of engagement is opportunities to learn opportunities to grow. Like, is this a place where they can learn new skills? And, yeah, you know, some people will go find those skills themselves and find projects. And, other people do want a little bit more of like, help me, guide me. It's like this whole balance between managers being, are they coaches? are they project managers, you know, that, that whole thing. So, and like we said at the start, there's a bunch of people who probably have not had this conversation about why they do what they do and where they're going. And they do need a little bit more of that handholding around where their skills can grow and what opportunities there are.

Isabel Berwick: Yeah. And I think the coaching part for managers is huge actually. And I, it's one of the big tensions I see coming into the workplace in the next few years, that the burdens on managers are so massive to be a coach and a therapist, as well as a technical manager. I mean, how can anyone do all of that? can see a scenario where companies start to employ a lot more actual therapists and counselors. It's starting to happen now. and this kind of terrible burden is a particular issue for HR professionals, I think, because so much of what they do, you know, there's so much pressure on them from the personal side of people's lives, but they've also got to, you know, manage the people in the company in a much more procedural and process driven way. it's too much. I think there has to be some sort of reckoning.

Damon Klotz: Are there any particular companies or any, examples, real examples, you know, of people who are actually sort of hiring therapists or coaches into the workplace?

Isabel Berwick: we ran an article in the FT last year about, it's mainly banks and lawyers, so companies with plenty of money to support their staff are, because I mean, lots of companies have employee assistance programs, you know, which are generally phone based, they're quite old fashioned. They've been around for a long time. Some of them are quite basic. Some people don't use them because they don't think they're confidential. And, you know, there are, you know, Proper reasons for thinking that, actually, in some cases. So I do think, you know, while some people would be not sure about seeing a therapist that was employed by their company for confidentiality reasons, I think that, you know, once it becomes embedded and becomes the norm, I think that could be the way forward. Because not everyone can afford a therapist outside in their lives. Why should they? And sometimes you might need just a bit of help with a work plate. You just need, you know, a bit Wendy Rhodes in Billions, if you've watched that series. Sometimes you just need someone who knows the company, knows what you're going through, but can give you an, who's not your friend and not your colleague and not your mum, who can give you a bit of impartial support.

Damon Klotz: I know a lot of my HR peers in our community have a lot of issues with her being deemed HR and then she's sitting there doing performance coaching slash therapy slash you like whatever else has to get done in order for those people to make more money that day. But I think that's a, you know, like, it was good to see an example like that. in sort of Hollywood, because we're very familiar with it from a sports perspective, sports psychologists and sports therapists. And, you know, what do you need a mindset coaches? You know, we do a lot of work with people who work in, on the sports side of things. We, and CultureAm has a lot of sporting clients who all started to like use Culture Amp, but then we're like, Oh, that sounds like a competitive advantage. They're measuring their culture. And before we know it, an entire industry all starts using Culture Amp because they all are looking for that little edge to get something more.

Isabel Berwick: Yeah. I mean, I think there's a lot we can learn from sports actually. I think it isn't quite normalized yet to have therapy. But as we know, these things take a few years and then suddenly they're everywhere.

Damon Klotz: One of the big learnings that I had as an Australian who moved over to the US and, you know, I'd worked in London before that, but like, you know, working in California was a very different experience in terms of this whole idea of self promotion and self advocacy, and even just like going around some of the convention halls at conferences in the US and I'm like, I need to get way more confident in myself in my pitch in my speech. And hosting a podcast has sort of maybe sort of helped in that. Like you get very used to saying your own name and doing self promo and telling people how many, you know, top charting episodes you've done. But self advocacy doesn't come naturally to a lot of people. So do you have any advice for someone who knows they probably should be a better advocate for themselves in their career, but might struggle with that first step?

Isabel Berwick: you're speaking to a British person. So, yeah, so it's very much not the done thing in British culture, or it hasn't been. What I've learned, and I put this in the book, I think, one really good tip I found, or heard, I think it was from a woman called Elisa Licht, who does, who writes about personal branding. And she was saying, If you feel uncomfortable about advocating for yourself, for example, for every one thing you put on social media that is about yourself or your achievements, you know, re amplify five other people and do the same in meetings. So essentially you're elevating other people while not putting yourself down. And I think that's a really, if you're someone who's not a natural self promoter, I mean, I would probably put myself, I don't feel I have to be a massive self promoter, but then I have the luxury of having a big brand behind me at the moment. And I think, you know, as do you, and I think that we cannot underestimate that. The people who I find are most self promoting are people who are independent operators. And why not? They have to be, they are the brand. So we're all our own personal brand to a certain extent, but some of us have the luxury of a brand behind us. But I think when you're in the workplace and you're trying to get noticed, the word I would probably use is visibility. Which I think people find easier than personal branding or self promotion. And visibility is simply about making yourself seen, whether that's in real life or online. But sometimes you do have to be seen in real life. And this is a conversation that I've had, particularly with women, who like to work flexibly. They might be at home more than, you know, if your peers are in the sightline of the boss more than you are, That may be an issue. It may not be an issue. You may work for a company where promotion is done in an incredibly fair and transparent way, but most companies aren't like that. And most bosses are biased because they're people. And they see the people in front of them and they may put that person on a project because they're in the top of their mind. So I suppose it's more about how do I stay top of mind in the people whose minds I need to be. In, I don't know, that's a rather rambly answer, but it's a very big and sprawling topic. And I think as AI takes over a lot more of our jobs, what we're bringing as individuals becomes actually amplified. And I don't think that's really sunk in for a lot of people. What is the value that I am adding that the machine isn't? And that's going to be huge, particularly in my industry, media and creative industries. What is the individual's creativity that I'm paying for or buying or looking at?

Damon Klotz: So I think three big tips that I heard there for people who this might not come naturally to, or who might be from Commonwealth nations, like England and Australia is, like take on the concept of sort of what, you know, Dan Pink wrote about, decades ago, free agent nation, like if you were your own person, you would have to be your own CMO and CEO. So how would you position yourself if it was literally just you working for yourself? If the idea of writing about yourself and promoting your own work feels kind of icky, write for yourself once and then give feedback to five other people. Like in Culture Amp, you can go give shout outs, you can give feedback, you can go praise other people, you can do all that recognition. And then also, think about where are you both physically and digitally showing up? How visible are you in public Slack or Teams channels or things like that? Are you, you know, are you a video on person in company wide meetings? I've got a colleague who comes to mind who is always video on, huge smile. It's like he's the biggest advocate. He's like a human Labrador dog, smiling at everything you say, he always channels positive energy and he's like that in person. He's done a really great job of like giving that energy over to his digital self because he is a remote employee. He's nowhere near our office. So think about where do you physically and virtually show up and what version of you is there as well.

Isabel Berwick: That's a very good summation of my rambly answer. Thank you.

Damon Klotz: No worries. We will keep both the rambly and the summation there because I love like being able to thread all the different things together and hear it back. talking about sort of the modern dysfunctions of just the world of work and all the things that we're sort of dealing with, I guess, you did say that, you know, if you have chosen to work in a corporate career, to a certain extent, there is a level of dysfunction that you do have to accept. I think we can all, no matter whether we've worked for a day, a month or a decade, we've seen that. I think maybe one of the more modern issues that we're sort of facing is this whole idea of drawing boundaries in a corporate workplace. So, you know, due to COVID and if you've spent time working remotely, you know, and time zones being a thing, I found that especially since moving back from the US to Australia, it's like you have to shift how you work and 5pm isn't 5pm really anymore. how do you feel about the concept of boundaries and future proofing your career? Because like you said, you do wanna protect yourself a little bit 'cause you want to live a, a full life, but also you don't wanna necessarily miss out on opportunities either.

Isabel Berwick: I love boundaries. I mean, when I started work and for a long time afterwards, boundaries were fences. So, and suddenly the, the idea that boundaries have become this thing that we can erect around us psychologically is really exciting. I think I went, I went to a whole workshop on boundary setting, quite recently. It was interesting. So I'm, I'm a big fan. I think they have to be used judiciously. I think in a corporate setting, there's some compromises that have to be made. And I think some people perhaps, and I generalize slightly younger people, are not as flexible in that because I think if you've grown up in online culture, boundary setting is a very important part of that because you have to protect yourself to a certain extent. And they're very adept at that in a way that I'm not, and you may not be as a millennial. But. I do think that the idea of boundary setting at work sets a very good example in terms of not, I mean, not that overwork is the sole cause of burnout, but for those of us who just did everything we were asked and said yes to everything, it just allows us to ask the question, should I be setting a boundary here? So, it's opened up the conversation, I think, for older people, and it's, baked into life for many younger people. So, I, you know, I think things are changing and they will never go back. It's good.

Damon Klotz: One of my controversial or sort of spicier takes that I put out there publicly is this whole idea that. A lot of startups, and I've witnessed this a lot, sort of, you know, moving to Silicon Valley in my 20s and seeing people even younger than me who are like, willing to do whatever it takes to go work at the most interesting company and this whole idea of being promised this equity will be the reason that it all pays off. But for me, it was like, I saw so many early career professionals who had zero boundaries and were like, I will do whatever it takes. you know, for this to work. And the reality is it doesn't work most of the time. And so many startups have built on this whole premise of this gigantic workforce of aspirational and maybe like slightly ignorant young career professionals who have no boundaries yet and are just willing to work. And I think in, depending on what industry you work in, the work will always be there. And the workplace, if it's not really a culture first company as we talk about it, will take everything and more if you're willing to give it. So if you don't have your own boundaries, if you don't have some of these things, you might find yourself working in one of those industries or those workplaces where it will take everything that you've got.

Isabel Berwick: That's a really good point. They will I remember being very struck by those, accounts of the lot, you know, Sam Bankman Freed and his team were living in Bermuda, in a house together, a lot of them in relationships together, working all hours. You know, that's the kind of, you know, Crazy end point of some of this, and we know how that ended, but exactly that, it'll take everything and it will chew you up and it'll be your life.

Damon Klotz: So we promised the listeners at the very start of this episode that we would have very practical advice, some key takeaways. We've also hit some spicy topics, which I think has been really interesting. I want to maybe end on a real life example that could freak out a lot of people. And, you did touch on this in your book, which is you want to get ahead in your career. you know, you really do want to get ahead and you do want to think about putting myself in the right places, you know, you've been listening to this episode, you're like, yep, I'm going to get visibility and I'm going to think about what I want. And then you find yourself and you have to go talk to the CEO. And you're like, how do I talk to a CEO? How do I talk about what I am? How do I not be having a panic attack at the same time? How do I put myself forward with the most important person in the company? So if someone does want to put themselves out there, but they have found themselves about to have this conversation, what advice do you have? About how to talk to a senior leader,

Isabel Berwick: So my first advice is before you go in there, go and splash your face with cold water in the lavatory and take a few deep breaths, because honestly That's going to help. And look at yourself in the mirror, make sure you haven't got any spinach in your teeth, all that stuff, which I have forgotten on many occasions. You know, I, I've been very nervous. I have a, you know, I find authority difficult and, uh, I've been nervous on many occasions, but I've learned not to be. I think the best advice I had came from Ros Atkins, who's a BBC broadcaster, who's written a very good book on communication. And he says, always have something written down. If you're going to see the CEO, just maybe four bullet points, because you will forget, your brain will just go. So just have it written down, even if it's just something very subtle on your phone, or a piece of paper, or just check it before you go in if you think it's naff to have a piece of paper out. I just think that very simple act is almost a comfort blanket and it's also a tool and that's all you need. And if you are someone who's incredibly nervous and sweaty, sit on your hands, look ahead, make eye contact and just try your best to breathe because my god I've been there and it is awful. I've been in some rooms with some very scary media people and newspapers used to be absolute. You know, I mean, they've changed immeasurably since I've been in the business, but they were not places for timid people. Put it that way.

Damon Klotz: whatever prep work you'd have to do to have important conversations. I think it's important. This will be a little bit of a, like behind the scenes for listeners, but like, I literally have in my run of show notes, which, you know, if you're watching video of this, you'll sort of see me try to look down the camera, but also make sure I'm hitting on the right points. I have little reminders that it's like, smile, breathe, remember to breathe. Remember, you're human. Forget that there's a camera and there's lights and there's a microphone. Just, you're just having a conversation. And at the end of the day, we are just humans trying to have a normal experience in the workplace and just, yeah, and just try like, I know it's hard when you are dealing with, with senior leaders and especially like, you know, when I went overseas and I've met, you know, people who I've looked up to my whole life, it's hard to not be you know, just sweating and things like that. But yeah, just, You're human, they're human, and at the end of the day, we're just having conversations.

Isabel Berwick: So how do you feel when you speak to Esther Perel? She's, she leaves gaps in the conversation. It's like, and there's also the listening part actually, isn't it? That works. Just leaving a pause can be very powerful, which is something I hear her do all the time.

Damon Klotz: Yeah. One of the, the way that I sort of think about as we sort of get very meta as we end this episode with podcasters talking about podcasting, which is, one of the, I guess, inspirations I took for the style of host that I want to be, which was, this whole idea of being a really generous listener. So I can do all the reading that I want. I can do all the prep. I can look at all the questions, but at the end of the day, I do just have to really hear what the person's saying and understand what is my role in taking this conversation to where it needs to go based on what I'm hearing? And it might be throwing out half the questions. It might be letting it go somewhere else. So yeah, being a really generous listener, doing my own sort of, you know, prep and research, reading through it all. but yeah, like sometimes, you know, one of Esther's go to questions is say more. So don't necessarily ask the next question. Just like if, if it feels like they're on the cusp of something, just say, Say more, or tell me more about that, and just, you know, allow people to take the conversation where it needs to go.

Isabel Berwick: That's great advice for meetings as well.

Damon Klotz: Exactly. Yeah, sometimes we feel like we have to get the next agenda item there, but sometimes just sort of saying more might be that unlock question that allows someone to go a little bit deeper.

Isabel Berwick: Yeah.

Damon Klotz: Well, this has been a very meta conversation with two work podcasters talking about work, our relationships with ourself and our work. Isabel, are there any final thoughts or inspirations? We did promise that this would be full of action packed tips. So how do you want to land podcast plane here?

Isabel Berwick: Oh, so. My tip that I'm giving everyone at the moment, and I really like myself, is to cancel one meeting every week and go for a coffee with a colleague. You know, let's think about connection a bit more in the workplace. So when you come to London, Damon, come for a coffee with me.

Damon Klotz: I love that. I will definitely take you up on that. Yes. we are humans. Go be human, go spend time in person, be visible, put yourself out there, praise yourself. Don't praise yourself too often. Share it with other people. We're all trying to navigate this messy thing that is work. So thank you for the work that you do. Thank you for your newsletter, for your writing, for your research. you know, the world doesn't need too many of us pontificating about the world of work, but it does need enough of us. So that people can get inspiration about how to make work better.

Fade in theme song through the end

Damon Klotz: So I just want to say thank you for everything that you do to create a better world of work.

Isabel Berwick: Thank you so much for having me. Thank you.